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Water Carry Problem, Foursomes And Scrambles


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#1 languid

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 02:50 PM

I’m posting this to be of possible use to some Forum readers and to get discussion. The Rules Forum has been very quiet for a while.

 

This is a real problem. My Club has a par 3, 120 metres. The tee shot is a water carry of 105 metres over a dam. This is men’s Black Course tee, 17th hole. There is an alternate tee for women and for two other rated men’s courses. 105 meters doesn’t sound much but it is frequently played into a strong westerly. Some players hit wedges of course, some elderly guys even hit driver.   

 

Sometimes one of the partners in Foursomes (Alternate Shot) is faced with an "impossible"  Tee Shot 

It is their (his/her) turn to play. Faced with a water carry they know that it is just too far. 

Purposely making a swing to miss the ball is not acceptable.

 

This situation is covered in Interpretation 22.3/3, Player May Not Purposely Miss Ball so His or Her Partner Can Play. 

 

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/interpretations/rule-22-interpretations

 

There is a way.

 

The “weak hitter” tees a ball in the Teeing Area, makes a tiny stroke moving the ball a small distance being sure it stays in the Teeing Area. Easy method. Place a ball on the ground and use a putter.

 

Now the ball has been played in correct order. The side has a ball lying 1 in the Teeing Area.  The partner can tee a ball anywhere in the Teeing Area and play in the correct order.

 

Some Scrambles have a minimum number of tee shots for each player in the Team.  That can produce a forced tee shot situation. This ploy would work allowing other members of the team to play the side’s second shot teeing up in process.

 

 



#2 ColinCL

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 04:31 PM

The obvious solution for both is to use one of the alternative tees if I am right in inferring that it provides a realistic shot for everyone.

 

Am I  missing something that you feel prevents that?  


Edited by ColinCL, 16 October 2020 - 04:34 PM.


#3 languid

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 07:37 PM

In a Foursomes the side decides which order they play. It can be the side does not choose well.
Another situation. Mixed Foursomes for example. The man hits from the men’s tee. He hits a bad shot, loses the ball in the dam.
His partner must play the next shot from the men’s tee.
It doesn’t have to me mixed. It can be men’s.
Club Level playing abilities are limited.

#4 ColinCL

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 07:56 PM

I do understand foursomes,.  What I meant was that you  use  an alternative tee as the only tee to play off on that hole.

 

What you are suggesting is no different in principle to what the Interpretation makes clear is not to be done. There's really no difference between taking a putter and patting the ball a few centimetres and deliberately missing the ball.


Edited by ColinCL, 16 October 2020 - 07:59 PM.


#5 languid

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:47 PM

The water carry is feasible for men but some find it most daunting. The other tee is used frequently.
On your second point, I disagree.
There is nothing in the Rules that requires you to hit a ball a certain minimum distance.
A stroke requires you to genuinely attempt to strike the ball. That is the main point in the Interpretation.

#6 rulie

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 12:11 AM

I think Colin is suggesting that part of the issue is with course setup.  In club events, imo, the course should be set up such that the majority of participants have an enjoyable event; that may mean using the alternate tee(s) on that hole.

Regarding the "short putt tee shot", I think it is in accordance with the Rule.  It is definitely using the Rule as a potential advantage.  A month or so ago, my wife and I were playing in an alternate shot event.  We have a par 4 where there is about an 80 yard carry just in front of the green.  After she hit the tee shot, I layed up just in front of the water.  She was convince that she couldn't hit over the water, so I asked her to hit a six foot sideways putt so I would hit over the water.  Was that against the Rule?


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#7 AAA

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 03:16 AM

I agree. The "short putt tee shot" is simply laying up..


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#8 languid

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 10:10 AM

I think Colin is suggesting that part of the issue is with course setup.  In club events, imo, the course should be set up such that the majority of participants have an enjoyable event; that may mean using the alternate tee(s) on that hole.
Regarding the "short putt tee shot", I think it is in accordance with the Rule.  It is definitely using the Rule as a potential advantage.  A month or so ago, my wife and I were playing in an alternate shot event.  We have a par 4 where there is about an 80 yard carry just in front of the green.  After she hit the tee shot, I layed up just in front of the water.  She was convince that she couldn't hit over the water, so I asked her to hit a six foot sideways putt so I would hit over the water.  Was that against the Rule?

Thanks Rulie,

I understand the point on Course setup. The elderly men, including me are challenged by the 17th Hole situation, but not overwhelmed by it. Weather can be an added problem. The full water carry is used for Club Championships including Men’s and Mixed Foursomes.
On monthly medal stroke events the Club offers an alternate Stableford played on a shorter course, the White tees it happens, playing the Plates. There is good support for the alternate event.
Additional information on our Course. The 15th has a 50 metre water carry tee shot. There is water by way of a creek all the way to the par 4 green.
16th a significant carry over the meandering Creek for the tee shot and 18th too over a dam.
This plays on the mind especially when the player is aware of a good score potential from 14 well played holes.
Of course the sideways shot you mention is fine. The player chooses direction they wish to play every time.




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