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Ball In Play Match Play Situatipn


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#16 languid

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 08:56 PM

Folks, I think we agree on the intention of the Rule.
If your ball is farther away it’s your right to play the next stroke.

What is missing in the Rules statement is a short qualifying phrase.
It could be “after the previous stroke” or similar.

This would eliminate the problem of a dropped ball changing, usurping a fundamental principle of Order of Play.

Playing golf is given in Rule 1.1 ..making a Stroke at a ball ...

#17 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 05:17 AM

Folks, I think we agree on the intention of the Rule.
If your ball is farther away it’s your right to play the next stroke.

What is missing in the Rules statement is a short qualifying phrase.
It could be “after the previous stroke” or similar.

This would eliminate the problem of a dropped ball changing, usurping a fundamental principle of Order of Play.

Playing golf is given in Rule 1.1 ..making a Stroke at a ball ...

 

out of curiosity

What was the ruling on the before mentioned situation.

Did A play or B

who won the hole.


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#18 ColinCL

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 06:02 AM

If that was true Rulie and taking your view. onestep further

 

lets say B plays and flubs it 20m. What then who s shot is it then

 

A or B's

According to your theory  it still B's because he hasn't got past A's original position.

 

,I have sent it off to my pennant captain for adjudication.

 

What is a "pennant captain"?    Unless he or she is as well qualified and experienced a referee as Rulie, you'd be best taking his opinion. 

 

There used to be Decisions covering various permutations of this situation but the Rules are now silent on the matter beyond stating that the ball that is farther from the hole is to be played first, (R6.4a(1).  Where is ball "is" has to be where it comes to rest  on the course, after a stroke.   Nothing else makes sense.

 

Consider "playing" to be making a stroke, not just lifting and placing/dropping under a relief rule preparatory to hitting  it.  

 

If in the original situation, B correctly plays first and A fluffs his next shot such that it lies farther from the hole than B's, it is again A's turn to play.   That's a new situation and who is to play first is determined by where their balls now lie. 


Edited by ColinCL, 06 September 2020 - 06:04 AM.

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#19 languid

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 10:23 AM

BG
There is no actual scoring result.
In my original post I explained that I had drafted a Quiz Question. The scenario being practical at my home Course.
It turned out the Quiz question was trickier than I expected.

I will put the original post up with the answers I hope are correct.
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#20 OldBogey

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 11:56 AM

There used to be Decisions covering various permutations of this situation but the Rules are now silent on the matter beyond stating that the ball that is farther from the hole is to be played first, (R6.4a(1).  Where is ball "is" has to be where it comes to rest  on the course, after a stroke.   Nothing else makes sense.
 
Consider "playing" to be making a stroke, not just lifting and placing/dropping under a relief rule preparatory to hitting  it.  
 
If in the original situation, B correctly plays first and A fluffs his next shot such that it lies farther from the hole than B's, it is again A's turn to play.   That's a new situation and who is to play first is determined by where their balls now lie.


Colin, whilst acceding to your greater knowledge, I disagree that "Nothing else makes sense". Surely A dropping a ball further from the hole than B's changes the order of play. A could be standing at the spot where he obviously intends to drop a ball. But until he actually drops it, it is still B's turn to play as A's ball in play (in the creek) is closer to the hole. When A drops his ball it then becomes his ball in play and his action costs him a stroke. If B has still not played, it is no longer his turn as A's ball in play is further from the hole.

By way of comparison, let's say that A and B both play to an uphill fairway and A's ball is marginally longer than B's. Both balls are at rest and it is B's turn to play. However, before the players get to their balls, A's ball rolls back down the fairway so that B's ball is now closer to the hole. A must play first.
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#21 languid

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 12:38 PM

 

 

During Play of a Hole A plays a stroke with his ball finishing in a Creek, (Red Penalty Area}

B plays his stroke and his ball finishes farther from the hole than B's. 

 

Order of Play requires B to play next.  

 

Before B gets to his ball A decides to drop a ball, Back-on-the Line and drops the ball in the correct manner at a correct place. 

 

Is A's dropped ball in play?

 

What options does B have?

 

The reason for this post; possible Quiz Question, situation is quite practical at my home Course

  My answers.

 

A's dropped ball is in play.   Reference Rule 14.4

 

 https://www.randa.or...of-golf/rule-14

 

B's Options

1) Invite A to play his next stroke. This is simple but eliminates B's right to cancel A's next stroke

2) Say nothing and make no gestures  of invitation to A to play and retain the right to cancel A's next stroke should A go ahead and play

3) Play his (B's) next stroke

 

Incidentally Rule 14.4 shows that even if A had not carried out the drop properly the ball he dropped would be in play. Of course if there was something wrong with the drop A needs to fix that before he plays his next stroke  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by languid, 06 September 2020 - 12:39 PM.

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#22 WendyD

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Posted 07 September 2020 - 01:29 AM

Rule 6.4d, second bullet.



#23 languid

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Posted 07 September 2020 - 03:29 AM

Rule 6.4d, second bullet.


Thanks Wendy, problem solved.

#24 languid

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Posted 07 September 2020 - 04:10 PM

  • When Player Has Choice to Play Ball as It Lies or Take Relief.
    • The player’s order of play is based on the spot where the original ball lies (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).
    • This applies even when the player has already decided to take stroke-and-distance relief or to take relief to play from a different place than where the original ball lies (such as when the original ball is in a penalty area or will be treated as unplayable).
    •  


#25 rulie

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 09:14 AM

 

  • When Player Has Choice to Play Ball as It Lies or Take Relief.
    • The player’s order of play is based on the spot where the original ball lies (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).
    • This applies even when the player has already decided to take stroke-and-distance relief or to take relief to play from a different place than where the original ball lies (such as when the original ball is in a penalty area or will be treated as unplayable).
    •  

 

Does Wendy's response say that, "I rest may case" on who plays next?



#26 OldBogey

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 09:55 AM

Why on earth would I have expected there might be some logic in the rules?
Thank you all for adding to my education.
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#27 languid

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 10:43 AM

Does Wendy's response say that, "I rest may case" on who plays next?

Wendy has led “the horses to the water” or for us to the Rule which covers the situation under discussion.

She has left it for us to read the Rule.

The Rule is saying whether A moved early on his plan to take relief or not the person who has the right to play the next stroke is B.
Even if A went a long back on a stroke and distance relief, it is not A’s right to play the next stroke. What matters is that A previous stroke resulted in his ball being closer to the hole.
In practice A taking Penalty Relief particularly a long way back would probably result in B inviting A to play the next stroke.

#28 ColinCL

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 02:53 PM

Rule 6.4d, second bullet.

Thanks  for the reference Wendy.  It's good to know the Rules are not "silent" on the matter as I'd thought but not so good to realise I had overlooked it.  It wasn't even obscure.   :rolleyes:



#29 ColinCL

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 03:04 PM

Wendy has led “the horses to the water” or for us to the Rule which covers the situation under discussion.

She has left it for us to read the Rule.

The Rule is saying whether A moved early on his plan to take relief or not the person who has the right to play the next stroke is B.
Even if A went a long back on a stroke and distance relief, it is not A’s right to play the next stroke. What matters is that A previous stroke resulted in his ball being closer to the hole.
In practice A taking Penalty Relief part       icularly a long way back would probably result in B inviting A to play the next stroke.

 

May I suggest you think again about this bullet point in 6.4d(1)?

 

  • When Player Becomes Aware That He or She Is Required to Take Stroke-and-Distance Relief.     The player’s order of play is based on the spot where his or her previous stroke was made.

I'd also suggest that in match play, the "right" that matters is that of the player nearer the hole not to play first and thus see the outcome of his opponent's shot before deciding how to play his own.


Edited by ColinCL, 08 September 2020 - 03:11 PM.

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#30 languid

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Posted 08 September 2020 - 03:26 PM

Colin,
I take your point.
The player is “required” to take Stroke-and -Distance Relief when his ball is lost or out of bounds.
Go back a long way in my post was connected with the ball being lost in a Penalty Area. The player making S and D Relief his choice. It is one of the Relief options.
If searching determined the ball was not lost in the Penalty Area, but lost outside the Penalty Area then S and D it is.
In my post scenario A’s ball closer to the hole is in the Penalty Area.
I was sticking to that in my explanation above.
Wendy’s reference was specific to the original scenario with bullet point two giving the information needed.
Have I misunderstood something?




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