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9....release


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#1 BROWNMAN

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 02:24 PM

9 Release


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#2 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 05:39 PM

Ok, Brownie,

A good covid lockdown discussion starter.

I'll start here because I think the Release is where I have the most questions.

One of the Tomasello videos is quite helpful here

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=h22cGerPYvs

So, at the start of this discussion, do we agree that Tomasello's description is TGM?

Perhaps this action applies to one or other of swinging or hitting, if so, which one?

If it really is TGM, then I have further questions, but there is no point in getting to those if TGM is different to Tomasello.

#3 madness

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 09:32 PM

I think the grip and release are the starting points for any instruction. The video below is one of my favourites and my favourite view of the golf swing. Blixt is clearly throwing the club and Snead is pulling. Blixt keeps his left arm straight for a long time after impact while Sneads left arm folds and comes away from the body quickly. The strong clearing of the left hip is also a sign of pulling the club.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=ln-3D-NxH0E

 

There are some very good players who throw the club like

 

Justin Thomas

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=pIebmK1xyuw

 

and Jason Day (Stop it at 21sec and see the left arm.)

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=EBw9BdZmKrs

 

But I believe the best of the best have a significant pulling influence in their swing keeping the face squarer for longer. I also think those throwing the club put a lot of pressure on the body because they are compensating for a club that wants to turn over more.

 

It also isn't black and white. Ernie Els is somewhere in between.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=61-ooxUgWFc

 

 

I also believe it is largely determined by your own personal biomechanics. 

 

Jim Venetos teaches a setup to suit his own release pattern determined by his own personal biomechanics.

In the first video of him simply talking he keeps tucking his arms in. If you watch the second video of him swinging he tucks his arms in when he hits through the ball. 

 

https://www.youtube....v-I_1PsZ4&t=46s

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=RxGEJBlx_sw

 

He has to setup closed to allow for him flipping the club. Their is no universal truth.

 

Coaches who teach a "method" are either showing you what works for them or assuming you are willing to practice until the cows come home to change.

 

If I had a young talented player I would work them towards a pulling motion rather than a throwing motion. Adam Scott looks to me like he has spent the last couple of years trying to do this. I would also work a club player obsessed with practice towards the pulling motion.

 

A club golfer who likes a little bit of practice is better off accepting their release pattern and working around it like Jim Venetos has. Open stance, closed stance, strong grip, weak grip etc doesn't matter in this situation as keeping it in play and having a good short game is the key.


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#4 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 10:18 PM

Very nice, imo, madness, thanks

You triggered a thought about lessons. If I ruled the golfing world, pros would explain that you can pull and you can throw or push, and get pupils trying both.

My pet hate is "the secret" or "one way" teaching. I loath all the advocacy that you get in nearly every video.

I am only aware of TGM and Jim Hardy who offer an even handed explanation of different methods. Do you know of any others?

Once I got Hardy, I tried 3 of the methods he showed and could get all three round the course. I spent a whole season being open minded and alternating between them, before I finally settled on what was best for me.

Finally, back to TGM, what do you think of the hand action that Tomasello shows?
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#5 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 10:26 PM

https://www.golfchan...asing-golf-club

Here is Jim Hardy. He is "teasing" the topic rather than teaching, but this might be of interest.

#6 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 10:40 PM

So, having tried both of Hardy's releases over a season, the one thing he does not say is that while the throwing action hits straight balls, that includes "straight left".

Watch Kuchar on tv and he will hit some lefts. Not hooks, straight lefts.

With the other release, as he says, you can hit hooks and slices. What I found was that this release pattern was not nearly as wild as I expected.

For a while, I let the hole influence my choice. If I was on a hole with trouble all the way up the left side, I would use the left arm pull action for fear of hitting the straight left shot with the throwing action.

Similarly with trouble up the right and maybe a left to right wind, the throwing action was the way to go for me. Lower trajectory, not likely to hit a slice.

Ironically, after my season of experimenting, the one I chose was the "no release" Zach Johnson pattern, one of the variants Hardy describes.
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#7 madness

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 10:45 PM

Very nice, imo, madness, thanks

You triggered a thought about lessons. If I ruled the golfing world, pros would explain that you can pull and you can throw or push, and get pupils trying both.

My pet hate is "the secret" or "one way" teaching. I loath all the advocacy that you get in nearly every video.

I am only aware of TGM and Jim Hardy who offer an even handed explanation of different methods. Do you know of any others?

Once I got Hardy, I tried 3 of the methods he showed and could get all three round the course. I spent a whole season being open minded and alternating between them, before I finally settled on what was best for me.

Finally, back to TGM, what do you think of the hand action that Tomasello shows?

I tried reading TGM but it's a bit full on for my little brain. I admire those who understand the science of the golf swing but at the same time don't think you need to be a scientist to understand the golf swing.

 

I agree with Tomasello and it reminds me of Mike Austin who I also enjoy listening to. I think they are describing a throwing pattern of the arms working against a pulling action of the legs. The momentum of the legs stops the club being thrown too early, therefore you should try and throw as hard as you can. But not everyone can pull with the legs like a young Sam Snead (awesome to watch) and Snead's stance seemed to get more closed as he got older maybe because he lost that movement. Hogan famously spent hours on the range trying to fight the throwing of the arms because he snap hooked it as a young man.

 

As much as I like Tomasello and Austin I still think they are being idealistic. The real game is much more of a struggle even for the very best.

 

Regardless of how correct they might be an individuals honest assessment of their own patterns is the starting point or a coach who can help you understand your own patterns.


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#8 madness

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 11:43 PM

So, having tried both of Hardy's releases over a season, the one thing he does not say is that while the throwing action hits straight balls, that includes "straight left".

Watch Kuchar on tv and he will hit some lefts. Not hooks, straight lefts.

With the other release, as he says, you can hit hooks and slices. What I found was that this release pattern was not nearly as wild as I expected.

For a while, I let the hole influence my choice. If I was on a hole with trouble all the way up the left side, I would use the left arm pull action for fear of hitting the straight left shot with the throwing action.

Similarly with trouble up the right and maybe a left to right wind, the throwing action was the way to go for me. Lower trajectory, not likely to hit a slice.

Ironically, after my season of experimenting, the one I chose was the "no release" Zach Johnson pattern, one of the variants Hardy describes.

Regardless of which pattern you decide is right for you familiarity and trust is key. I would not try and deliberately play a variety of release patterns.

I think the setup plays a bigger role with the throw because you have to be able to "let it go". As you say it can go "straight" left.  As much as I don't like what Venetos teaches at least he matches the setup to the release. 

 

Montgomerie didn't have a pretty swing but technically one of the best. Similar flight to Snead and Nicklaus. The ball was sliding off the face so easily that he spent very little time thinking about his setup. Where as if Thomas and Day aren't lined up properly it's hard for them to feed the ball into play. 

 

When I talk about the ball sliding off the club, even though a fade makes it easier I do think you can slide the ball around with a draw. But I think throwers have more trouble getting the ball to slide. 

 

You can also throw and pull underarm or overarm.

 

McIlroy throws underarm. If you freeze it at 1:10 you can see the angle between the arms and the club. His right hand and arm are levering the club up.

 

 https://www.youtube....h?v=MiPq0zmI_Bo

 

Justin Thomas throws overarm. If you freeze it at 0:52 his right arm and hand are still pushing down hence the straight line from his arms to the club. Some coaches rave about the extension but I think this is trouble.

 

https://www.youtube....rb_a_Ik8c&t=75s

 

Annika would throw underarm. Really underarm. Almost scoopy. 

 

https://www.youtube....LpHFDHzaY&t=14s

 

So many different ways to get it done. 

 

In an ideal world I like Snead. Pulling underarm. The keys are the left hip and left elbow clearing way left and a really early angle between the arm and the club in the follow through. This allows the clubface to be more stable through impact which allows the ball to slide off the club but still means you can take a swipe at it and have a free follow through unlike Zach Johnson who looks to me to be trying to stop his follow through.


Edited by madness, 10 April 2020 - 11:47 PM.


#9 madness

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 11:46 PM

Glad you joined in Madness,reading the book can,does and will turn a lot of people away for sure,if you read the book,the "scientific" content is really over after chap 2 ,but i do agree it can still be a turn-off to many,dont put yourself down mate,you sound a damn side smarter than me thats for sure.....Tom T. is not advocating the the legs power the swing,all the legs do is bear the foot pressures that emanate from the change in direction of swing,back foot==backswing......front foot --forward swing,the entire swing is one of moving centres,Tom T goes on to explain the importance of a good centred pivot.........to one of your points if i may,most power for swinger will be the speed and action of left hip,not the legs.............there is more to this story

I'm interested to hear your take on the hip. I would have thought the foot and the leg are moving the hip?



#10 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 April 2020 - 02:10 AM

Brownie,

this has been great today, but not sure I can keep this up for another 11 sections!




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