41 replies to this topic

[Henschke]

Well the new list is hot off the press & of course I have some opinions, which I will share & I'm sure that there will be plenty that don't agree with me but here goes anyway.......

Firstly, the notable omissions...

The National (Ocean or now Gunnamatta)-Vic

Yarra Yarra-Vic

The 2 other Joondalup combinations-WA

Leongatha-Vic

The 3 Coffs Harbour combinations-NSW

 

Then, one that shouldn't be on the list....

Twin Creeks-NSW

 

Then 2 that are on the list but rated way too high.....

St Andrews Beach-Vic

Links Kennedy bay-WA

 

Ok, now I'll wait for the barrage (someone had to start the conversation!)

 

[Crankyscott]

having not played many of these and recognising that everyone values different things (including play on the day) I wont opine on merits. Ialso havent read the article to see the criteria or number of raters etc, nor reasons why some werent ranked. But perhaps some observations in comparing the AGD and GA lists:

 

 

StAbeach ranked 14 places higher in GA than AGD (12 vs 26)

Gunamatta not ranked at all in AGD

Port Fairy ranked 26 places higher in GA than AGD (31 vs 57)

Concord ranked 14 places higher in GA than AGD (32 vs 46) - maybe AGD played the pre-reno version?

Portsea ranked 18 places higher in GA than AGD (34 vs 52)

Joondalup quarry/dunes 19 places lower GA than AGD (37 vs 18). Is Joondalup a top 20 course in Aus??

The Australian ranked 19 places lower on GA than AGD (40 vs 21) - is the Australian a top 25 course in Australia??

Eastern South ranked 39 places higher on GA than AGD (55 vs 94)

The Cut ranked 23 places lower on GA than AGD (59 vs 36)

Sanctuary Lakes ranked 30 places higher GA than AGD (60 vs 90)

Healsville ranked 25 places higher on GA than AGD (61 vs 86)

 

 

The two most glaring:

Ranfurlie not ranked at all on AGD, on GA its 60

West Australian not ranked at all on GA, on AGD its 56

 

The common theme in a lot of these seems to be GA ranks a lot of Victoria courses higher than AGD does. Some state based biases here one way or another?

[Henschke]

having not played many of these and recognising that everyone values different things (including play on the day) I wont opine on merits. Ialso havent read the article to see the criteria or number of raters etc, nor reasons why some werent ranked. But perhaps some observations in comparing the AGD and GA lists:

 

 

StAbeach ranked 14 places higher in GA than AGD (12 vs 26)

Gunamatta not ranked at all in AGD

Port Fairy ranked 26 places higher in GA than AGD (31 vs 57)

Concord ranked 14 places higher in GA than AGD (32 vs 46) - maybe AGD played the pre-reno version?

Portsea ranked 18 places higher in GA than AGD (34 vs 52)

Joondalup quarry/dunes 19 places lower GA than AGD (37 vs 18). Is Joondalup a top 20 course in Aus??

The Australian ranked 19 places lower on GA than AGD (40 vs 21) - is the Australian a top 25 course in Australia??

Eastern South ranked 39 places higher on GA than AGD (55 vs 94)

The Cut ranked 23 places lower on GA than AGD (59 vs 36)

Sanctuary Lakes ranked 30 places higher GA than AGD (60 vs 90)

Healsville ranked 25 places higher on GA than AGD (61 vs 86)

 

 

The two most glaring:

Ranfurlie not ranked at all on AGD, on GA its 60

West Australian not ranked at all on GA, on AGD its 56

 

The common theme in a lot of these seems to be GA ranks a lot of Victoria courses higher than AGD does. Some state based biases here one way or another?

Some interesting observations there.

I have played 381 different courses, 352 in Australia, so I think I have a fair idea on making comparisons but as you say, it depends on the conditions at the time that you play.

Some follow up to some of your comparisons & comments.......

I've always felt that St Andrews Beach is too highly rated. It only has a few excellent holes & the condition isn't that great

Port Fairy is rated too high by both

Joondalup(Quarry/Dunes) is definitely top 20

I rate The Cut, as highly as Joondalup-Definitely!

I agree that Ranfurlie shouldn't be on the list. Current condition is terrible

The Western Australian also shouldn't be on list & it is also currently having renovations done

 

The ups & downs on comparing GA & AGD seem a bit each way, so no conspiracy there

 

Cheers!

[Crankyscott]

Always enjoyed StAndrews beach immensely and never had a problem with the conditioning. Relatively speaking perhaps but is that the right comparison? Is it fine to not ruin your round? Absolutely. And such a fun experience. Wide fairways where being in the right spot makes the next shot easier to execute, yet if you are on the wrong side or too far back you can still recover if you are bold.

[PerryGroves]

Well the new list is hot off the press & of course I have some opinions, which I will share & I'm sure that there will be plenty that don't agree with me but here goes anyway.......

Firstly, the notable omissions...

The National (Ocean or now Gunnamatta)-Vic

Yarra Yarra-Vic

The 2 other Joondalup combinations-WA

Leongatha-Vic

The 3 Coffs Harbour combinations-NSW

 

Then, one that shouldn't be on the list....

Twin Creeks-NSW

 

Then 2 that are on the list but rated way too high.....

St Andrews Beach-Vic

Links Kennedy bay-WA

 

Ok, now I'll wait for the barrage (someone had to start the conversation!)

 

Given YY and Gunnamatta were going through renovations, did they ask not to be rated?

[Crankyscott]

Golf Australia was able to rate NG so not sure why AGD couldn't. But they didn't. Re YY, neither magazine rated it for 2020.

[Henschke]

Always enjoyed StAndrews beach immensely and never had a problem with the conditioning. Relatively speaking perhaps but is that the right comparison? Is it fine to not ruin your round? Absolutely. And such a fun experience. Wide fairways where being in the right spot makes the next shot easier to execute, yet if you are on the wrong side or too far back you can still recover if you are bold.

Fair enough but have you played many other courses, to be able to compare it? I think it is consistently rated too high by comparison to others around

Edited by Henschke, 01 March 2020 - 06:46 AM.

[Crankyscott]

I was simply saying that making relative comparisons on conditioning is fraught. Sure some courses the conditions are immaculate - but do they need to be? Could they spend that money doing other work or course improvements? Do they have an advantage in weather or turf type? What it comes down to is what are we rating? Each magazine has its own criteria and each person does likewise. I'd be more inclined to have "faith" in a panel ranking than one person who is most likely only playing these courses once over a series of many years (which makes valuing condition a bit wrong - as that can change from month to month)

[golfguy33]

I think that you have to look at the people ranking the courses and whom they align themselves with.
The Victorian theme is a really obvious problem and the ratings are bias !

[Bogey Golfer]

I think that you have to look at the people ranking the courses and whom they align themselves with.
The Victorian theme is a really obvious problem and the ratings are bias !

 

these rankings are always subject to opinion and controversy.

what makes a great course anyway.

 

How do the judges rate the courses ?

, do the judging panel actually play the courses ? or just have a nice dinner in clubhouse with committee.(the better the meal the higher the ranking?)

 

why do they do these ratings ..... to sell magazine...

[golfguy33]

Golf Australia was able to rate NG so not sure why AGD couldn't. But they didn't. Re YY, neither magazine rated it for 2020.

How they rated NG before it was finished and opened for general play is still a mystery.

Yarra isn't finished and won't be for several months so it is obvious that neither mag would rate it until completion. 

 

these rankings are always subject to opinion and controversy.

what makes a great course anyway.

 

How do the judges rate the courses ?

, do the judging panel actually play the courses ? or just have a nice dinner in clubhouse with committee.(the better the meal the higher the ranking?)

 

why do they do these ratings ..... to sell magazine...

Both mags have slightly different criteria and rankers.

 

GD use 7 criteria and in no particular order. 

 

* Shot value - risk reward, accuracy, length and finesse ( shot value carries twice the value of any of the other criteria )

* Design variety

* Resistance to scoring

* Aesthetics

* Conditioning

* Ambience

* Memorability

 

Which GCA has done work on varying courses seems to be a big part of how their followers vote with regards to rating some courses !

[Henschke]

I was simply saying that making relative comparisons on conditioning is fraught. Sure some courses the conditions are immaculate - but do they need to be? Could they spend that money doing other work or course improvements? Do they have an advantage in weather or turf type? What it comes down to is what are we rating? Each magazine has its own criteria and each person does likewise. I'd be more inclined to have "faith" in a panel ranking than one person who is most likely only playing these courses once over a series of many years (which makes valuing condition a bit wrong - as that can change from month to month)

Just because I am that "one person", doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. That's what makes the world go around

[Crankyscott]

Which opinion are you referring to? That StAB and KB are rated too high? Nobody is denying you that opinion. Your opinion that StAB has poor conditioning - I would have thought that's more of an objective assessment, and as I asked (not answered) whether you are making relative comparisons that are ultimately meaningless.
This is a discussion forum no? Sorry for trying to have a discussion.

[Lukos87]

I’ll have a crack at answering some of the questions but don’t hold me to these answers 😂

[Lukos87]

Well the new list is hot off the press & of course I have some opinions, which I will share & I'm sure that there will be plenty that don't agree with me but here goes anyway.......
Firstly, the notable omissions...
The National (Ocean or now Gunnamatta)-Vic
Yarra Yarra-Vic
The 2 other Joondalup combinations-WA
Leongatha-Vic
The 3 Coffs Harbour combinations-NSW

Then, one that shouldn't be on the list....
Twin Creeks-NSW

Then 2 that are on the list but rated way too high.....
St Andrews Beach-Vic
Links Kennedy bay-WA

Ok, now I'll wait for the barrage (someone had to start the conversation!)

Omissions- Castle hill and national gunnamatta did not have enough ranks in time available to be included(I believe 7 was the minimum)
Killara and Yarra Yarra due to continuing works in progress.

Combination courses- only to rank the premier lay out of a 27 hole facility which also excludes the other Eastern course and the other Yering Meadows course(if the other 9 even still exists?)