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Right Shoulder Down Plane


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#46 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 04:54 PM

Brownie,

I am saying something different.

Please bear in mind it was Lynn Blake, whose website hosts the Tomasello videos, and who is a TGM expert, that says "if you can't get the right shoulder down plane, nothing else matters much"

Here is the difference.

Traditional theory talks about

Good posture, rotate the shoulders around the spine, stay turned at the start of the down swing and drop the arms down, clear the left hip out of the way. What they don't say, but mean, is "do those 5 things and your right shoulder will go down plane"

Here is what I now believe.

Take the right shoulder and right elbow back on plane, then drive them down plane.

What I don't say, but mean, is "do those 2 things and your shoulders will rotate about your spine, you will stay turned at the start of the down swing, you won't need to drop your arms because you won't have lifted them too far on the backswing, and you will clear your left hip out of the way"

Fewer swing thoughts and a laser focus on what Lynn Blake says really matters.

So, I now realise that when I say move the right shoulder down plane, I don't mean that this is some new magic move.

What I mean is make that the thing you focus on directly, and the other stuff will still happen. As opposed to trying to get your right shoulder down plane indirectly by focussing on other aspects of your swing.

#47 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 05:21 PM

Jack, Brownie,

I just want to re-state the main point of all of this.

The reason the right shoulder needs to move down plane, the reason Lynn makes his comment imo, is because that is an essential condition for the ideal of an uncompensated swing.

Now, my ah ha in all of this goes as follows.

Since we are typically compensating on the downswing automatically because our right shoulder is not going down plane, that means that we have an in built hand eye coordination system that does the compensating and makes contact with the ball

Imagine what this same in built hand eye coordination might achieve if it were not busy compensating!

We have all experienced the good ones when we feel we are "in the slot".

So my latest theory is two major simplifications.

First, If you need / want the right shoulder to move down plane, make that the focus of your swing thoughts rather than focus on umpteen other things that might add up to a right shoulder down plane.

Second, if you succeed in getting your right shoulder down plane, with the additional requirement to lead with the right elbow, you don't need to do anything else because the automatic hand eye coordination system -that has previously been compensating all the time - will now just automatically hit the ball for you. And it will hit the ball much better because that is all it has to do, no compensating moves.

#48 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 05:31 PM

Jack,

as always when we discuss stuff like this, we need to bear in mind that you swing and I hit.

If I may divert to Jim Hardy for a momenr, his swing pattern that I believe is equivalent to TGM swinging is his two plane swing with a LOP release.

In this pattern, the left arm is the plane arm. efdeel has a similar feel.

I have played this method when I was evaluating different swing types. In this method the right arm does nothing except brace, the left arm and the uncocking of the left wrist is all that is going on.

In that context, I can see why, and agree with, a feel and focus that is concerned with what the left shoulder is doing as opposed to the right shoulder.

In my swing context, which is more right sided and hitting oriented, it seems simpler to focus on the right shoulder.

#49 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 06:01 PM

Jack,

as always when we discuss stuff like this, we need to bear in mind that you swing and I hit.

If I may divert to Jim Hardy for a momenr, his swing pattern that I believe is equivalent to TGM swinging is his two plane swing with a LOP release.

In this pattern, the left arm is the plane arm. efdeel has a similar feel.

I have played this method when I was evaluating different swing types. In this method the right arm does nothing except brace, the left arm and the uncocking of the left wrist is all that is going on.

In that context, I can see why, and agree with, a feel and focus that is concerned with what the left shoulder is doing as opposed to the right shoulder.

In my swing context, which is more right sided and hitting oriented, it seems simpler to focus on the right shoulder.

in actual fact Devon, I am talking about my hitting action. I swing with my driver and long irons and hit with the rest.

 

The left shoulder issue that I am talking about, may be peculiar to me, because of my back issue. However I feel it is applicable to others if they tend to pull their hitting shots left.

 

The flaw that I had was the tendency for my shoulders to swing flat, hence dragging the club left. This was an instinctive action, although unwanted, to try and protect my back from injury. I was not able to get to arms straight, pointing down the target line, without a heap of compensations. The fix involved fixing my left leg action and getting the left side to enable the left shoulder to move up plane. I can now bring my right shoulder down plane, without too much discomfort in my back. It simply involves employing the right mechanics in the right sequence. That’s what I find is missing from all the videos on YouTube and pro lessons that I have had.


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#50 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 06:09 PM

Jack, Brownie,

sorry to dump 4 posts in one session, but I just wanted to return to TGM because all of this starts with Lynn Blake / TGM.

3 essentials

A stationary head
Balance
Rhythm

I agree, we need these whatever else we do, with a possible variation that might allow a bit of controlled head movement.

3 Imperatives

Flat left wrist
A clubhead lag pressure point
A straight plane line

Where this right shoulder thing fits is the straight plane line. of course. You can't have a straight plane line if you are coming OTT because your right shoulder is above plane, or, at the other extreme, if the right shoulder gets too far round under plane and you get stuck.

FLW is straightforward, which leaves lag.

I don't have lag pressure sensing yet, but I believe that leading with the right elbow is a good step in that direction.

I believe I am correct in that if you are compensating you won't have lag, so you can't sense what you don't have. I suspect that most of my life I have been compensating.

I would be working on lag pressure points hoping to finally get some feel at a lag pressure point if I were not locked down by this **** coronavirus.

But I know you and Brownie are true TGM'ers so I wanted to just put this right shoulder thing in the proper TGM context, at least as far as I understand things.

#51 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 06:13 PM

Jack,

Ok, sorry I got on the wrong track with your left shoulder thing, I thought you were still swinging.

Your last post has got me straightened out, I see what you mean and agree. Many thanks.

#52 BROWNMAN

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 06:42 PM

Dev,.......Im not watching those utube vids on LBGs site,I have a series of DVDs that a student took whilst he was learning the golfing machine at Toms centre in the 80s....4 or 6 students..He went through entire book and explained every aspect of the book /swing....we must remember that Homer NEVER said swing as I say ,he simply wrote the book in catalogue form,in this he went through many aspects of the swing/hit..in which he outlined 144 variations as best he could,but Tom went on to say that he mainly outlined in his opinion the easiest way to swing,in these DVDs tom showed the drill that was best suited,he called simply the stick drill in which he showed the best way to start the downswing which we are talking about now,he put the clubshaft behind his back and his elbows would hold shaft,now he would take backswing (after he got his stance using 3 point set ) then he would dip his r/shoulder downplane which btw his r/elbow made a connection then would rotate around his spine to face target,this move is made easier by pulling left hip back out of the road,when he made the first move on downswing connection ,it automatically gave his body spine tilt  ...that i believe is what Lynn alluded to,if you cant do this your not going to go far in golf.........hope you follow my ramblings.......one could swing/hit by using other methods,but this is easiest on spine in his opinion,this one would give you pitch elbow   swinging..........in his words  the first thing in downswing was CONNECT R/elbow to torso..in front of right hip


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#53 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 April 2020 - 07:02 PM

Brownie,

yes, I follow. Maybe not the exact thing you have, but he does the stick drill in one of the youtubes, so I think I know what you are talking about.

Focussing on the right shoulder won't be a simplification if you are already achieving it by other means, I guess. So if you have been following and executing Tomasello successfully, you will likely have your right shoulder down plane already.

My experience has been different. I have struggled with OTT and with having too many swing thoughts. The experience I have had, starting with Lynn's comment, and following it to what I consider to be a logical conclusion, is one of things getting simpler and better.

#54 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 04:59 PM

I don't have lag pressure sensing yet, but I believe that leading with the right elbow is a good step in that direction.

I believe I am correct in that if you are compensating you won't have lag, so you can't sense what you don't have. I suspect that most of my life I have been compensating.

I would be working on lag pressure points hoping to finally get some feel at a lag pressure point if I were not locked down by this **** coronavirus.

But I know you and Brownie are true TGM'ers so I wanted to just put this right shoulder thing in the proper TGM context, at least as far as I understand things.

Devon,

IMO, you will never feel any lag if You use PA#1 to drive the secondary lever. I believe that PA#1 is about providing left arm extension, through PP#1. I find that there is a natural tendency to power the secondary lever thru PP#3 and as a result, the feeling of lag is lost.



#55 Devongolfer

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 05:29 PM

Jack,

lag sensing is a mystery to me. I am ok with lag, just lag sensing.

In your experience, does lag sensing deserve the status / prominence that HK gives it? In other words, is it worth the effort?

#56 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 05:57 PM

Jack,

lag sensing is a mystery to me. I am ok with lag, just lag sensing.

In your experience, does lag sensing deserve the status / prominence that HK gives it? In other words, is it worth the effort?

I find it very useful for club control on delicate shots. Can’t say I have been able to make much use of it on any of my power shots. 


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#57 Devongolfer

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 06:25 PM

Jack,

now you mention it, I think I also use it on short shorts. For chips, I like to feel that I am dragging pp3. I had never thought of that as lag sensing, but maybe it is. Learn something new every day!
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#58 BROWNMAN

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 06:37 PM

Jack,

lag sensing is a mystery to me. I am ok with lag, just lag sensing.

In your experience, does lag sensing deserve the status / prominence that HK gives it? In other words, is it worth the effort?

DEV,I was same as you concerning feeling "lag",....lag is just a result of correct mechanics in swing,...mechanics or sequence,as far as full swing goes,i would suggest feeling  the lag would be the feel of good contact and resulting shot..maybe the feel of being in balance after swing is complete,I love what Jack said about feel on short shots,thats it right there imo....i imagine jack is using hitting around greens which so many good golfers use consistently,but,there are a lot who use swing chips too,in my experience,i would use hitting for flat and slow greens but use swing chip on raised and sloping greens etc...players may simply have personal preferences too!  for sensing" lag"have some short chip practice ,around 5-10 ft,but,sequencing is a must,use sand wedge and concentrate on ..right hip--right arm------right arm ..left hip,..if done correctly ..you WILL feel a definite compression on ball,club will feel   heavy   after contact.......bit like a wet mop feel if you like......try it out,hopefully you will be surprised    SET-UP....feet close together,slightly open stance  weight on left 60-40


Edited by BROWNMAN, 05 April 2020 - 06:59 PM.

I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#59 Devongolfer

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 06:59 PM

Brownie,

I do basically hit chips and pitches. I also have a swing short game shot, the high one over a bunker. You can quit on a hit, but not on a swing.

#60 BROWNMAN

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Posted 05 April 2020 - 07:47 PM

Brownie,

I do basically hit chips and pitches. I also have a swing short game shot, the high one over a bunker. You can quit on a hit, but not on a swing.

All good Dev,BUT,do you feel the lag and wet mop feel? if you dont,you dont have it,as for quitting on hit-chip,that is a technique prob imo,im sure john doesnt quit


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE




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