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#16 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:05 PM

Jack,

writing that last post triggered a thought.

Physics.

Somewhere in TGM there is a comment that the club does not seek the ball, it seeks an in line condition.

When the great Paul Hart, TheDart, was on here, he and I exchanged ideas on one topic when he wanted me to practice a move and he said I would miss the ball if I got it wrong. I replied that it was impossible for me to miss the ball.

My point here is that if physics were the dominant factor, we would miss the ball when we were misaligned. Yet we don't. Therefore, physics is not the dominant factor.

So what is? I think physics as in a free release of the club etc only comes into it as long as our instinctive hand eye coordination is "happy" that we will hit the ball. If it is not "happy" it takes over and adjusts, aka compensates.

How often do we compensate? I reckon every time to some degree, no two swings are identical, very few swings are perfectly on plane.

So, I reckon we can forget the physics.

What we need to discuss and work on is what makes our instinctive hand eye coordination "happy" that we are on track to hit the ball?

Big statement, I know. Could be nonsense, as always. But I have maybe 50 golf books, videos etc, and not one of them says a word about how our instinctive hand eye coordination works.

All of them treat the golf swing as if it is a combination of conscious, intentional, movement and physics. They miss out the most important part, imo, the part that actually hits the ball: instinctive hand eye coordination.

I read a paper once written by some University researcher about how cricketers catch a cricket ball in the outfield. They analysed the movement of the players and worked out that the subconscious was computing something from the arc of the ball.
The cricketer is compensating. They "instinctively" see the ball in the air, realise that they are not where they need to be to catch it, then adjust their position to intercept it.

This is turning into one of my long posts, so I will stop here. Hopefully you can get some sense of the question I am raising.

Edited by Devongolfer, 19 January 2020 - 07:20 PM.

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#17 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 09:21 AM

Devon,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The subconscious mind knows all about the laws of Newtonian physics, it has to deal with them every day. As such, it is well prepared to invent compensation moves to enable our hand eye coordination to perform every day tasks.

 

The trick in golf is to get the alignments right at the top so that the subconscious mind does not have to invent compensations that enable us to deliver the club face to the ball.


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#18 Devongolfer

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Posted 20 January 2020 - 05:09 PM

Great! Thanks, Jack.

I agree about being aligned at the top. I think the subconscious only kicks in once you start towards the ball. And it will start compensating immediately in some situations like the right hip being "in the way". In other cases, it might be happy at the top, but then we lose the plane on the way down, so it kicks in later.

I knew I had found something when I just focussed on getting the right shoulder down plane, with the right elbow connected, because it made such a difference.

Now I think we have underpinned that experience with some explanation as to why it works.

The joy, for me, in all of this is not only finding a couple of keys that actually work, it is also realising how much "other stuff" I can stop thinking about.

Spring is on the way!

#19 BROWNMAN

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 10:52 AM

Jack,

writing that last post triggered a thought.

Physics.

Somewhere in TGM there is a comment that the club does not seek the ball, it seeks an in line condition.

When the great Paul Hart, TheDart, was on here, he and I exchanged ideas on one topic when he wanted me to practice a move and he said I would miss the ball if I got it wrong. I replied that it was impossible for me to miss the ball.

My point here is that if physics were the dominant factor, we would miss the ball when we were misaligned. Yet we don't. Therefore, physics is not the dominant factor.

So what is? I think physics as in a free release of the club etc only comes into it as long as our instinctive hand eye coordination is "happy" that we will hit the ball. If it is not "happy" it takes over and adjusts, aka compensates.

How often do we compensate? I reckon every time to some degree, no two swings are identical, very few swings are perfectly on plane.

So, I reckon we can forget the physics.

What we need to discuss and work on is what makes our instinctive hand eye coordination "happy" that we are on track to hit the ball?

Big statement, I know. Could be nonsense, as always. But I have maybe 50 golf books, videos etc, and not one of them says a word about how our instinctive hand eye coordination works.

All of them treat the golf swing as if it is a combination of conscious, intentional, movement and physics. They miss out the most important part, imo, the part that actually hits the ball: instinctive hand eye coordination.

I read a paper once written by some University researcher about how cricketers catch a cricket ball in the outfield. They analysed the movement of the players and worked out that the subconscious was computing something from the arc of the ball.
The cricketer is compensating. They "instinctively" see the ball in the air, realise that they are not where they need to be to catch it, then adjust their position to intercept it.

This is turning into one of my long posts, so I will stop here. Hopefully you can get some sense of the question I am raising.'

Devon,was Dart telling you about the action of FLW in the uncocking action in down swing,throwing the c/head "out" (aim hosel into ball)?and the workings of No 2 + 3 in release?


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#20 BROWNMAN

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 02:03 PM

Devon,was Dart telling you about the action of FLW in the uncocking action in down swing,throwing the c/head "out" (aim hosel into ball)?and the workings of No 2 + 3 in release?

Devon n Jack,and indeed others........I have always followed TGM as you know,...ALL my "limited"knowledge all stems from there,as I see it,the best person to learn from that is aligned to the system is Peter Croker...his knowledge of the golf swing is unsurpassed IMO..,he and Dart were good friends ,peter has so many great teaching vids on youtube,I try hard not to be distracted by most others on youtube and stay with Peter Croker....he takes any single component apart and goes through it in the best detailed description ever......i have a little ditty written by tony jacklin to peter croker written into my copy of TGM,i might put it up if anybody is interested


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I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#21 BROWNMAN

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 03:59 PM

                              DITTY FROM TONY JACKLIN TO PETER CROKER                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you think you are beaten--------you are                                                                                                                        If you think you dare not--------You dont                                                                                                                          If you would like to win,But you think you cannot,It is almost certain you wont                                                                If you think you will lose,you have lost                                                                                                                              For out in the world you will find success begins in a fellows will                                                                                    Its all in a state of mind                                                                                                                                                    Lifes battles dont always go to the stronger or faster man                                                                                              But sooner or later the man who wins is someone who thinks he can                           


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I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#22 Devongolfer

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 05:46 PM

Hi, Brownie, good to hear from you.

Thanks for the ditty!

Sorry, I can't recall what TheDart was trying to get me to do.

I bought all those Pete / Dart videos, plus I have some of Pete's other stuff. I agree about their level of knowledge.

#23 BROWNMAN

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Posted 23 January 2020 - 09:58 AM

Hi, Brownie, good to hear from you.

Thanks for the ditty!

Sorry, I can't recall what TheDart was trying to get me to do.

I bought all those Pete / Dart videos, plus I have some of Pete's other stuff. I agree about their level of knowledge.

I do believe he was telling you about uncocking of left wrist and its action,just a guess,cos when i first found out what its all about.......combination of c/force--geometry and physiology,fanct set of words but very simple action


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#24 Devongolfer

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Posted 23 January 2020 - 05:24 PM

Could be right, Brownie. I was wondering if this was the time when TheDart wanted me to feel like I was swinging around my feet. A few years ago, could be anything.

But my main point is that, as Lynn Blake says, "none of this matters much if the right shoulder is not moving down plane".

I think there is a basic alignment to do with the right shoulder and right elbow moving on plane down towards the ball. Get that wrong and your "hit" will just be a compensation move.

Beyond the right shoulder and elbow, you have some degrees of freedom related to wrists and shaft angles.

I reckon there is a tricky tradeoff here. Should I focus exclusively, on every shot, purely on right shoulder and right elbow down plane? Letting the "hit" be purely instinctive hand eye coordination, expecting some small compensation moves on every shot?

Or, should I try to build extra alignments "on top" of the right shoulder right elbow, such as wrist and shaft alignments? The upside might be even better shots, but the downside is a risk of loss of focus on right shoulder and right elbow which leads to poorer shots.

If you believe in the old adage that "it is not how good your good ones are, but how bad your bad ones are", as I do, I am pretty happy just worrying about right shoulder and right elbow.

#25 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 06:15 AM

                                                                                                                                               If you think you are beaten--------you are                                                                                                                       

If you think you dare not--------You dont                                                                                If you would like to win,But you think you cannot,It is almost certain you wont                                                               

If you think you will lose,you have lost                                                                                                                             

For out in the world you will find success begins in a fellows will                                       Its all in a state of mind                                                           

Lifes battles dont always go to the stronger or faster man                                                   But sooner or later the man who wins is someone who thinks he can                           

Not really sure how this relates to the swing theory of Right shoulder down the plane but its a good slogan

 

Thank you for the slogan

i will print this up for our pennant players.


Edited by Bogey Golfer, 29 February 2020 - 06:17 AM.

2017 OOM winner at Growling Frog.

2016 A grade winner Moonah legends OOM4.

2015 member of team Vision winners of SGC pennant.

2014 National ISG champion

2014 winner Kooindah waters

2014 winner Magenta shores


2014 first ever hole in 1 in an ISG event, 4th Hole Kooindah waters 19th October

2012 winner of BHIC and gaining a 5 year exemption


#26 333pg333

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 08:10 AM

Dev, just going back to your link to Dan Whittaker's 3 shoulder moves. I'd have liked to have seen the last one from behind as to what plane his right shoulder took when trying to move it past the ball? I'd also say that people can flip or manipulate the club who sway laterally or early extend up and out of their spine tilt position. (Don't see many who stay back so far on thier right side and flip the club as he demonstrated). These lateral moves make you hurridly correct with your arms as your brain is aware you're rapidly passing the point of no return. I do this and quite often wind up with club only in left hand after impact as a compromise of mismatched sequencing. I think you touched on feeling like your pressure point has been more in the right toes than heel. Refer to Marcus Bell's videos. 

 

I'd also say that if you think of your left side controlling the swing and winding and unwinding from the left shoulder/armpit, then the right side and a lot of the mechanical thoughts can be put aside. This is not to say you are unwinding in a flat shoulder spinning motion. The feeling I'm trying to have is to unwind down and out on a 10-15o inside path. A lot of the right side mechanical thoughts evaporate and I think this is a good thing for most players. 



#27 Devongolfer

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 04:35 PM

333,

good discussion, I am pleased you have breathed a bit of life back into isg. This is all the golf I am doing right now.

Totally agree with you about the left arm. A few stages back, following Jim Hardy, I experimented with both left arm as plane arm, which leads to a more upright swing. And right arm as plane arm. Leaving the entire discussion to one side, just to say that when I was using left arm as plane arm, I had the same sort of feeling as you describe in your last para. If I kept the left arm as the plane arm and the face square to the path using a zen twist or super strong Zach type grip, I got a very simple, repeatable swing.

But, having played it for a while, I had to admit to myself that I had lost a bit of distance. And I did not have much to lose.

I had decided that right arm as plane arm was too tricky and unreliable. So, I went back to Mindy Blake and leg power, which is the point of connection to Marcus.

With Mindy, the legs drive the pivot. The pivot drives the right elbow then the right forearm fires instinctively. Classic TGM, where you get pivot speed PLUS right forearm speed.

Anyway, my points of agreement are

Yes, left arm as you say is nice and simple.

Yes, Marcus is on the money with his footwork.

But I don't expect that trying to combine the two ideas would work well.

#28 333pg333

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 11:14 AM

 It is such a funny thing this game of golf. We tie ourselves up in knots sometimes to the point of wanting to give up. Or worse lol.

 

 

 

I'll have to check out some of those guys you reference to see how they word the use of the legs to drive the swing. I agree that when one really gets the timing / sequencing spot on, that the extra thrust through the lower pivot results in really visible gains in distance. My biggest fear is as you've touched on, pushing off the right toe way too early in the downswing. I sometimes revert to only thinking about keeping right foot flat on floor until after impact. But then this starts feeling too armsy.

 

 

 

Best results seem to come when body is feeling good and at its most flexible. A softness pervades rather than any sign of mental (which quickly becomes physical) tension and the top and bottom half work really well in sequence which results in good rotation and balanced finish. It also enhances the feeling that the club is moving at its peak speed through and even after impact.

 

 

 

What we often seem to totally neglect in discussions like this is the mental aspect and how much that infiltrates the physical now as such. We are fearing a poor result and when that happens it almost always comes to fruition. Tension quickly creeps in. Our arms, wrists, hands become tighter and the backswing speeds up. Very difficult to play well under these conditions. You may wonder why I bring this up as it seemingly can't be related to physical positioning of the body or club. But I think it totally does. I think you can even swing on or close to on plane but with tension and speed, the sequencing gets thrown out and results are poor.

 

 

 

As for legs and pivot. I was watching some old footage of Hogan and Snead. Definitely worth viewing!  

 

Just coming into impact his shoulders are still really closed and hips are about square. His right knee slides laterally rather than points outwards too. The right foot rolls towards target rather than pushes up and out on the toe. Stupidly obvious thing to say but this is what I'd love to achieve rather than the over active foot/leg thing that plagues me. I have found that when I get closer to this style I haven't lost any distance either. Quite often gained some through strike and draw action. Would like to see some of your swings if you've posted them? 

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by 333pg333, 31 March 2020 - 11:16 AM.

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#29 333pg333

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 03:48 PM

Oh, and also note how quickly and flat Hogan's club gets to the inside which sort of goes against modern teachings. 



#30 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 04:48 PM

great stuff, 333,

hopefully neither of us get covid19, but clearly we have both caught the golf bug!

It sounds like you have found one of the good teaching pros. Sadly, there are a lot of pros selling nonsense, but a decent pro is a great help. I don't want to mess you up with extra stuff to think about, we just got into all of this because of the Marcus videos that triggered a couple of "hot buttons" for me.

I have been working on swing mechanics for about 8 years. Prior to that, I had lessons or got tips from magazines and books. I finally got to the point where I wanted to understand swing mechanics rather than rely on doing what experts told me to do.

For most of the 8 years, things just got more and more complex as I read more and more material. For the past couple of years, I started to look for the simple "nuggets" within all of the material because it had become clear to me that things were getting way too complex.

If I can organise my thoughts, I might start a new thread. Perhaps the covid19 lockdown is the perfect opportunity to gather my thoughts and try to post something that might be helpful.




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