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Right Shoulder Down Plane


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 05:34 PM

I will just jump into this, then maybe fill in a bit more background later.

What do I mean by right shoulder down plane?

So, we setup and imagine the inclined plane. At this stage, don't worry about how upright or flat this plane is, just imagine a "normal" plane, not very upright, not very flat.

With or without a club, just focus on moving the right shoulder back, up and in on this plane. In my case, as I focus on moving the right shoulder, my hips have to move to allow me to move my shoulder on plane.

Lynn Blake said, in his video set "Alignment Golf" which is basically a TGM rip off, "if you can't get the right shoulder moving down plane, nothing else matters much".

After working on all kinds of moves and swing patterns, I finally had an "ah ha" moment and decided to take Lynn's comments seriously, and I really like what this does to my swing.

I will post a few additional times just building on this, linking in to key ideas in TGM.

As always, I am not an expert, individual mileage will vary.

#2 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 05:51 PM

Lynn Blake says to get your right shoulder moving down plane. He does not say you have to move it back up the plane first. You could move the right shoulder back some other way, then adjust to get it moving down plane and Lynn would be ok.

I chose what I considered to be the simplest option, which is to move the right shoulder back on the plane as well as down the plane.

So, now the question is: what plane? How upright or flat? I tried moving through a range from upright to flat. The flatter I got, the more hip movement I needed (age related limited flexibility). At some point, I got the sense that the right shoulder no longer had a clear path from the top position down to the ball, the left shoulder was "in the way".

So, that feel became important to me. "let the right shoulder "see the ball" at all times", and that created a limit on how flat my plane was.

Back up and in on this plane, forward down and out on this plane. It feels like the right shoulder is moving down plane at the ball.

I noticed that my natural hip movement to support this shoulder move seems reasonable relative to all the other instruction and theory on hip movement I have, so I discovered that if I focussed on the shoulder moving up and down plane, I did not need to be concerned with hip movement.

#3 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 05:58 PM

Right elbow.

What to do with the right elbow while the right shoulder is moving up and down plane?

I discovered that I liked the feel of just keeping the right elbow "connected" to the right shoulder. From the setup position, you have your right elbow set in a position relative to the right shoulder. As the right shoulder moves, maintain the same relative position, so the right elbow just "goes with" the right shoulder, back up and in, forward down and out. Returning to the setup position.

That became my "waggle". Right shoulder making small moves up and down plane with the right elbow moving with it.

#4 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 06:15 PM

What to do at the top?

I find that there is a natural end to my range of movement of the right shoulder. But, I could, if I wanted, lift my hands and or my right elbow further. Or I could drag my right elbow and or arms back around me more.

All of those moves make my swing worse. When the right shoulder stops moving back up and in, the right arm and hands stop too. This makes for a compact backswing.

That means, for me, not only can my right shoulder still "see the ball" at the top, so can my right elbow. There is a clear path from my right elbow position at the top down to the ball, the right hip is not in the way. The right elbow has a clear path to the ball and can get in front of my right hip.

#5 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 06:22 PM

I would like, at this point, to back fill with some references to theory.

I think it is clear that this shoulder movement, on plane, is not OTT.

And the right elbow path is not prone to "right hip interference".

Coming OTT and or hip interference are the top 2 reasons for compensations being needed on the downswing.

A focus on the right shoulder and right elbow, as described, creates a pivot that, in TGM terms, does not "foist the need for compensations" onto the hands and arms.

At this point, things start to get simpler and easier. I have spent years hitting the ball whilst making all sorts of compensations for pivot faults. Hitting the ball whilst not also compensating is just easy by comparison.

#6 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 06:30 PM

Deep.

Compared to what I have been used to, the feel of this pivot is that my right shoulder goes "deeper down plane". The right shoulder gets nearer to the ball on the downswing.

That relates to the TGM idea of "not running out of right arm". And, also in TGM, Homer says "the right forearm of every hacker comes into impact too high".

Now, as is always the frustrating case with TGM, one can never be 100% sure what Homer means, but I reckon that if the right forearm is typically too high, then getting the right shoulder deeper will lower the right forearm.

The feel of the right forearm action changes as well, for me. There is another thread about Peter Croker, and Brownman posted about "underhand karate chop" through impact. We may not be precisely talking about the same thing, but as I get my right shoulder deeper, the right forearm and hand, to me, feels more "underhand" through impact.

#7 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 06:33 PM

Personal.

Doing all of this, my personal preference is for my feet open at setup. Don't have a theoretical basis for that, I suppose that just happens to be what feels right to me.

I also have a tendency for my weight to topple forwards onto my toes, especially my left toes, so I like to set up feeling my weight on the inside of my right foot and towards the heel.

#8 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 06:36 PM

Nearly done.

Another TGM idea is "pivot speed plus right tricep speed".

In this mode of right shoulder down plane with the right elbow feeling connected to the right shoulder, as the right shoulder goes down plane, the right elbow gets carried along the speed of the pivot.

Late in the downswing, the right arm can "fire", so this fits with the pivot plus tricep idea.

#9 Devongolfer

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 06:43 PM

So I reckon Lynn Blake is right. Get the right shoulder moving down plane and you have a basis of a decent swing. Get this wrong and "nothing else matters much".

I have tried all sorts of detailed variations, like a drag and release feel versus a hitting feel or a throwing the club at the ball feel. My experience is that all of these are acceptable variations and are simple to do if you are not busy compensating.

In other words, I reckon the right shoulder thing can be the basis for the elusive "uncompensated swing".

So, if anyone was wondering where Devon was, this is what I have been working on.

Happy New Year.
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#10 BROWNMAN

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 09:15 PM

Dev ,great work,yes i did wonder where you have been,your work is deep,but very interesting,exacting is a good word,tom tom always said,the first thing in the downswing is  reconnect elbow to front of torso,it does a few little things automatically,special one to me is...1....spine tilt..2 elbow ahead of hands and shaft  3..allows forearm to release .......the karate chop action along with release automatically hands to be in correct impact position ,has check rein feeling...........Happy New Year to you and family


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#11 Weetbix

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Posted 01 January 2020 - 05:52 AM

Happy new year Devon
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#12 BROWNMAN

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 06:07 PM

not worth being on here anymore,used to be good ,scammers are taking over by the looks,shall just drop in from time to time and chat with jack and dev........


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I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#13 Devongolfer

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 06:04 PM

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=PFrQrVOkOjU

This video comes at the topic from the faults and fixes direction, but is saying the same thing as Lynn Blake.

After literally years of worrying about everything BUT right shoulder down plane, I reckon I play better golf when I pretty much ONLY worry about right shoulder down plane.

#14 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 10:30 AM

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=PFrQrVOkOjU

This video comes at the topic from the faults and fixes direction, but is saying the same thing as Lynn Blake.

After literally years of worrying about everything BUT right shoulder down plane, I reckon I play better golf when I pretty much ONLY worry about right shoulder down plane.

Devon,

I have a theory on this and it is only a theory. My thinking is that for the perfect swing, the loading of all the accumulators should be aligned along the plane of the intended down swing plane. That is, accumulators 4,1,2 and 3.

 

The right shoulder is effectively part of accumulator #4. So if you have the intention of driving the right shoulder down the intended swing plane, you need to have all the other accumulators also aligned on that plane. If they are not aligned, any attempt to move the right shoulder down the intended plane will feel weak. So the natural compensation is for the right shoulder to follow the alignment of the other accumulators.

 

You may wonder how accumulator #3 fits into this? If you have a bent left wrist at the top, then accumulator #3 is most likely off plane.

 

Interested in your thoughts?



#15 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 06:04 PM

Hi, Jack,

I think this is less about geometry and physics and all about compensating. Though I think the argument might end up being the same.

We always make contact with the ball, right? Everyone does, all the hackers around the course. Despite often ghastly swings.

For me, this must be instinctive hand eye coordination guiding hand and arm and sometimes body movements to get the clubhead onto the ball. When we do that we are fighting the physics, overriding the physics. Because, and here I agree with you, we are in some sense misaligned.

That chappie in the video illustrated 3 off moves with the right shoulder. Down under the plane leads to stuck, which leads to lefts and rights. Out above plane leads to OTT which leads to pulls or weak pull fades up the middle. On plane, but running out of right arm, leads to throwaway and lack of compression and distance.

If, instead, we get the right shoulder, and right elbow, moving deep down plane, the way it makes sense to me is that all my inner instinctive hand eye coordination basically has way less compensating to do. And better shots are the result.

For me, if our inner, instinctive hand eye coordination were able to speak and be in charge of the start of the down swing, rather than our thinking brain, it would say "hey, give me a chance to hit the ball properly by getting the right shoulder and right elbow moving down plane"




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