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Mindy And Tgm Hitting


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 04:37 PM

This thread is about Mindy Blake's swing pattern, in the context of TGM hitting.

In deference to the majority view begging me to keep my posts short, I won't do this as one huge essay.

So, just to lay out the groundwork.

We have TGM, The Golfing Machine, by Homer Kelly. Within that, there are two basic patterns, Swinging and Hitting, plus all sorts of variations on those themes.

Separately, Mindy Blake published two books: "The golf swing of the future" and "Golf The Technique Barrier".

Homer Kelly was coming at golf from an engineering / physics direction. Geometry, planes, impact physics etc etc.

Mindy Blake was coming at golf from an athlete's perspective, searching for advances in golf through an understanding of how the body works. Mindy saw parallels between the huge improvements in athletic performance like shot putting, javelin, and similar that came about through sports science and wanted some of that in golf.

Having studied both Mindy and Kelly, it has dawned on me that what Mindy proposes is what Homer would call Hitting. But more importantly, the quirkiness in the Mindy swing actually fixes the problems that Homer tells us to worry about, like roundhousing, throwaway, OTT etc etc

So, if you are trying and struggling to Hit per TGM, I recommend Mindy Blake.

That's the headline, I will post a few more times on some of the finer points where Mindy fixes things that Homer worries about.
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#2 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 05:25 PM

In TGM (eg 7.13), we see the problem of "running out of right arm". Essentially, the right arm is straightening through impact, but should not have reached the point of being fully straight until after the ball has been struck.

Kelly says that in order to not run out of right arm, it is necessary to keep the right shoulder back but also move it down plane. If you run out of right arm, the club goes into "throwaway" and you lose the compression.

In Golf Swing of the Future Mindy says that his starting point for his entire method was working out how to get the right elbow "at least 6 inches further forward".

Mindy is trying to take "not running out of right arm" to the max.

Mindy was an engineer, like Homer, as well as being an athlete. Both are keen to talk about compression on the ball and the necessity to be accelerating through impact and resisting deceleration.
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#3 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 05:35 PM

The second point of connection is 2-M-4, about Body Power. In this section, Homer talks about for hitters that we want "pivot speed PLUS right triceps speed" meaning the speed of straightening the right arm.

Mindy's stated reason for wanting the right elbow further forward was that he wanted to enable the "power to be poured directly from the legs to the clubhead". Mindy is in the school of thought that wants to use the legs to provide power.

Actually, Mindy insists on this being the ONLY power source, everything else should lag. In his view the right arm straightens "in reflex". But that idea has been debated since, so for this post I will simply stay with the idea of leg power as being important in Mindy's swing and in TGM hitting.

So, if you read 2-M-4 about hitting, then read the start of Mindy describing his method, it seems clear they are both describing the same thing.
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#4 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 05:53 PM

In TGM one of the key ideas is to "clear the right hip" with the right elbow, aka "avoid right hip interference". Essentially the right elbow stalls and the right forearm carries on doing what Homer calls a "roundhouse". This loses the compression and also leads to a "left".

With Mindy, one of the quirky things that is immediately noticed about his swing is how much he keeps the left arm away from the chest at the top.

We talked about this a lot in the "out to in thread".

Seen through the lens of TGM, what a great method for keeping the right elbow clear of the right hip. Right hip interference? Problem solved.
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#5 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 06:15 PM

When I read TGM, there are a series of admonishments, things to make sure you do or avoid.

Make sure you clear the right hip to avoid roundhousing
Make sure you get the right shoulder down plane, otherwise you run out of right arm
Lag is the secret

When I read Mindy, he is trying to do exactly the same as TGM hitting in intent, but he then comes up with this quirky stance and swing pattern that could be seen as overcoming all the issues that Homer is talking about.

I realise that there are not many people who have read TGM and not many who have read Mindy, so even fewer who have read and tried both.

But I have always liked TGM yet wished it was re-written into a simpler form for ordinary golfers.

Of the two TGM patterns, Swinging and Hitting, I prefer Hitting.

Anthony Taggart, aka the Swing Engineer recently published The Enchiridion (don't ask), which is a valiant effort at translating TGM Swinging into something more readable. But I was disappointed that he did not do a similar job for Hitting.

Meanwhile, I have been experimenting with Mindy and just got his second book. Then it dawned on me that Mindy has already written what I wanted, a readable explanation of Hitting.

So if you are intrigued by Hitting but wary of TGM, (lets face it, who isn't), imo Mindy is a readable, doable, well designed Hitting method.

All done, that's all I wanted to post.
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#6 BROWNMAN

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 09:27 AM

In TGM (eg 7.13), we see the problem of "running out of right arm". Essentially, the right arm is straightening through impact, but should not have reached the point of being fully straight until after the ball has been struck.

Kelly says that in order to not run out of right arm, it is necessary to keep the right shoulder back but also move it down plane. If you run out of right arm, the club goes into "throwaway" and you lose the compression.

In Golf Swing of the Future Mindy says that his starting point for his entire method was working out how to get the right elbow "at least 6 inches further forward".

Mindy is trying to take "not running out of right arm" to the max.

Mindy was an engineer, like Homer, as well as being an athlete. Both are keen to talk about compression on the ball and the necessity to be accelerating through impact and resisting deceleration.

Most problems with running out of right arm begins at address imo,if set-up is correct there should not be run out,there is something in impact fix that is mostly overlooked and that is impact pivot position,most will concentrate on hands arms but omit pivot at impact,its vital to impact -fix alignment......hips and right knee will be in correct position ,there is a vid of this somewhere,will look for it if needed,imo saves learning new stance that mindy,s swing demands


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I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#7 BROWNMAN

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 11:00 AM

Most problems with running out of right arm begins at address imo,if set-up is correct there should not be run out,there is something in impact fix that is mostly overlooked and that is impact pivot position,most will concentrate on hands arms but omit pivot at impact,its vital to impact -fix alignment......hips and right knee will be in correct position ,there is a vid of this somewhere,will look for it if needed,imo saves learning new stance that mindy,s swing demands

hoo roo.off on a cruise from today........might even have a game on fiji


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I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#8 Devongolfer

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Posted 15 October 2019 - 05:13 PM

Yesterday was my first round since getting Mindy's second book and making the connection to Hitting.

I made some changes since my last round.

My setup was with the feet far more open, this is a change Mindy makes between his first and second book.

My focus was on getting the right shoulder and right elbow deeper into the shot.

I paid a lot more attention to my setup. This is a TGM thing, you start a hitting action from Impact Fix, ie the positions you intend to be at impact. Mindy advocates this as well, though, of course, he does not call it IF.

Part of the setup that Mindy advocates is getting the face facing forward of the ball, with the eyes ready to move right eye under left through impact.

I am quite happy making any number of setup changes, the right shoulder / right elbow deeper idea was my only new swing thought. Left arm was still away from my chest.

It passed the test. I want two things from a first try like this.

I have to be able to get the ball round the course. Duffs are fine, to be expected, but the swing has to function acceptably and feel OK. If I try something new and everything goes horribly wrong, I know that I won't be devoting the next two years of my life to making it work, so I abandon it.

The other thing I am really hoping for is a few shots that go better than I would normally do. In a round, I am only expecting a handful of such shots. As it happened, I was playing with a regular partner who hits about the same distance as me, and I noticed I was nudging my drives past him more often. A couple of irons went really, surprisingly, well.

I only had one "left" when, for some inexplicable reason, I tucked my right elbow snug into my side. That reminded me that the lefts really do come from right hip / right elbow interference.

So, as I say, it passed the first test, next time up there are some more details to incorporate.

One other thing. As far as I know, Mindy's second book ( the Technique Barrier ) is out of print, I found a second hand copy on Amazon. His first book, The Golf Swing of the Future has been republished and is available new. If anyone is interested in Mindy and worried about not having the second book, basically the second book is the same as the first but he advocates a much more open stance, like Trevino.
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#9 Devongolfer

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 12:42 AM

Next Mindy detail.

According to Mindy, "if the angle is maintained between the left arm and the club, there will be no rolling of the wrists".

He says to maintain the angle by pushing down on the grip with the heel of the left hand, whilst pulling up with the fingers of the right hand.

I tried this, and I reckon he is dead right. If I let go of that angle the wrists roll, if I maintain it, they just don't. Not quite sure why at the moment.

But TGM'ers will know the angle between the shaft and the left arm as PA3.

That makes the push down / pull up a "2fer", it should improve both control and clubhead speed.

That makes Mindy hitting: pivot / PA1 / PA3, imo.

All I need on top of that is the right forearm to be at right angles and I will have "flying wedges" as well.

That will be my area of focus tomorrow, it will be interesting to see whether I can build these on top of what I had yesterday. As always, not expecting great execution right away, just looking for signs of promise.

#10 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 09:38 AM

Next Mindy detail.
According to Mindy, "if the angle is maintained between the left arm and the club, there will be no rolling of the wrists".
He says to maintain the angle by pushing down on the grip with the heel of the left hand, whilst pulling up with the fingers of the right hand.
I tried this, and I reckon he is dead right. If I let go of that angle the wrists roll, if I maintain it, they just don't. Not quite sure why at the moment.
But TGM'ers will know the angle between the shaft and the left arm as PA3.
That makes the push down / pull up a "2fer", it should improve both control and clubhead speed.
That makes Mindy hitting: pivot / PA1 / PA3, imo.
All I need on top of that is the right forearm to be at right angles and I will have "flying wedges" as well.
That will be my area of focus tomorrow, it will be interesting to see whether I can build these on top of what I had yesterday. As always, not expecting great execution right away, just looking for signs of promise.


Devon,
That would mean using an anti-extensor Action?

#11 Devongolfer

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 03:00 PM

Jack,

not sure what you mean, but no. I think extensor action wants to straighten the left arm. Mindy wants the left arm straight, but some PA3 angle maintained.

#12 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 08:41 PM

Jack,
not sure what you mean, but no. I think extensor action wants to straighten the left arm. Mindy wants the left arm straight, but some PA3 angle maintained.


Normal extensor action holds the left arm in tension. Mindy’s method would seem to put the left arm in compression.

#13 Devongolfer

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 11:28 PM

Jack,

no,

Hold a club in just the left hand. Start with the left arm straight and the shaft in line with the left arm. That has no PA3 angle. Agreed? As you lift the shaft as in the direction of cocking the left wrist, you start to create an angle, which if you were to maintain throughout the shot would work as PA3.

Now hold a club with both hands in front of you. Create a bit of PA3 angle. Now totally relax the wrists and the weight of the club head will cause the shaft to drop until you have lost the PA3 angle.

Mindy wants to maintain the PA3 angle. What do you need to do with the hands to maintain it? Lift with the fingers of the right hand and push down with the heel of the left.

This is completely different to extensor action. Applying extensor action does nothing to the PA3 angle. Doing the Mindy thing to hold a PA3 angle does nothing in the direction of extensor action. Two different things.

#14 Devongolfer

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Posted 16 October 2019 - 11:55 PM

Anyway, today's experiment.

Mixed.

The new idea for the day was the PA3 wrist angle. Disappointing start. Then worked out that my attention being on that, I was neglecting all the things that stop me coming OTT.

So, lesson 1 was that the wrist angle thing is not as fundamental as some other aspects of the swing. Perhaps nice to have, but not if more fundamental aspects get neglected.

Got rid of the OTT, and was playing OK but with a growing sense of disappointment that there did not seem to be any good signs from the PA3 angle idea. I was not entirely sure where I wanted my right elbow, either. Was I fully dragging the club through per Mindy or was I doing a bit of Hitting with the right arm?

By the end of 14 holes, I was beginning to think maybe abandon the PA3 idea. But then I had a bit of an idea which was to feel a bit more "sideways on" at impact. This was mostly a feel of where the club was in relation to my body at impact.

Played 15/16/17/18 with that feel, plus a drag feel, and I started to feel more positive about the shots.

So, I will resume next time from there.

#15 Devongolfer

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 04:41 PM

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=d7jePVzL47E

I posted this just to illustrate what I mean by "sideways on at impact". I don't think I was as extreme as Jim, but my feel yesterday was in that general direction.

It is easy for me to get distracted by Jim's quirky loop / lay down, but I believe he is well respected for his moves through impact and for being very straight.

I think I can see some Mindy in Jim's swing, I will give his swing some more study.




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