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#121 333pg333

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 07:05 AM

Oh, and short game does not benefit from pivot power imo.



 

How short is a short game? I find on pitching that you still very much need to pivot. Even on small chips I find that if you just hit with arms you can get irregular strikes. I still like to let the hips turn and think 'turn tailbone away from target' to stop any chance of lateral slide. 


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#122 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 04:23 PM

333,

I switch to arm power for anything less than full power.

The context of this is my full swing with deliberate pivoting to drag the club through. That is what I "turn off" for short game.

What I like is a feel that the pivot does not move, it waits and waits and can wait all day, if necessary, for the arm action to hit the ball. What I hate is the feeling that the pivot starts early, moving the hands and the club towards the ball, causing the arms to rush to catch up.

Now, that said, once my arms are ready to go and begin the hit, I am not trying to restrict pivot movement. Some pivot movement is fine with me as long as it follows and goes with the arm action, rather than leads.

For me, there is a distinction between pivot power, which leads, and a pivot movement that follows. There are several threads on here, Venetos, Manuel De La Torre, a couple more, I think, that talk about arm swings rather than pivot power.

The tricky thing I find with short game is that there are so many methods, I have tried them all, and they all work really well for me on our short game area. On the course, you get one go and each shot is different and there is more pressure.

The reason I think I prefer right arm for short game is twofold

1: I just think the my right arm has more instinctive distance control built in. Think tossing something into the bin.
2: if the pivot is waiting for the arm to move, I have more time. I can stand there as long as I like at the top of my swing. In practice, I don't actually hold at the top, but I don't feel rushed on the way down, which is what I really prefer.

I have "fallen in love" with a nice pivoting short game many times, I can get into the groove of doing those shots and they feel great. But, for me, they just don't play as well on the course.

#123 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 06:13 PM

Devon,
It puzzles me when I read about the need to physically manipulate the club to square the face thru impact. How come? I never do that. Today I won the competition with 44 points and not once did I think about having to square up the club. If you have the correct alignments and the correct grip, the club will square up without having to manipulate it. The things that I do think about during my round is rotating the forearms on the back swing, the slight inward rotation of the right forearm at transition and using both forearms to drive the hands at the ball. The hands are passive. The do what the forearms tell them to do.
As far as spraying the ball, from my experience, most times this happens due to club throwaway. I suspect a lot of players have problems with it but don’t know it.
Having to manipulate the club to square up the club face sounds so much like a form of compensation for an inherent flaw in the swing pattern.


I will be interested to chat more once you have read the Enchiridion. I hate that word, how about TGME?

Meanwhile, I love that you are winning comps, brilliant. I have tried your right forearm inward rotation, and I like it. But I think that move negates PA2, basically it sounds to me like you have given up on PA2 as well.

That should start a debate!
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#124 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 09:12 PM

I will be interested to chat more once you have read the Enchiridion. I hate that word, how about TGME?
Meanwhile, I love that you are winning comps, brilliant. I have tried your right forearm inward rotation, and I like it. But I think that move negates PA2, basically it sounds to me like you have given up on PA2 as well.
That should start a debate!


Devon,
I think TGME is much better name for it, for sure..lol

As far a loading PA#2, I don’t anything other what happens as a result of the right forearm inward rotation at transition. I think I sometimes gain a little extra by drag loading but I haven’t been able to verify that.

As far as the release goes, again, I make no conscious effort to unlock the left wrist. That just happens naturally. I find that if I make any attempt to force the uncocking, it invariably leads to a (dare I say it) cockup.

Now settled in to the beach house and have my feet up. I have the TGME in hand and glass of red on the ready. Interesting to see how far I get before I..........zzzzzzzzz
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#125 333pg333

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 07:03 AM

333,

I switch to arm power for anything less than full power.

The context of this is my full swing with deliberate pivoting to drag the club through. That is what I "turn off" for short game.

What I like is a feel that the pivot does not move, it waits and waits and can wait all day, if necessary, for the arm action to hit the ball. What I hate is the feeling that the pivot starts early, moving the hands and the club towards the ball, causing the arms to rush to catch up.

Now, that said, once my arms are ready to go and begin the hit, I am not trying to restrict pivot movement. Some pivot movement is fine with me as long as it follows and goes with the arm action, rather than leads.

For me, there is a distinction between pivot power, which leads, and a pivot movement that follows. There are several threads on here, Venetos, Manuel De La Torre, a couple more, I think, that talk about arm swings rather than pivot power.

The tricky thing I find with short game is that there are so many methods, I have tried them all, and they all work really well for me on our short game area. On the course, you get one go and each shot is different and there is more pressure.

The reason I think I prefer right arm for short game is twofold

1: I just think the my right arm has more instinctive distance control built in. Think tossing something into the bin.
2: if the pivot is waiting for the arm to move, I have more time. I can stand there as long as I like at the top of my swing. In practice, I don't actually hold at the top, but I don't feel rushed on the way down, which is what I really prefer.

I have "fallen in love" with a nice pivoting short game many times, I can get into the groove of doing those shots and they feel great. But, for me, they just don't play as well on the course.

Understood Dev.

 

Don't disagree about finding something that holds up under pressure a little more faithfully. We all need that. On a somewhat broader topic, I was speaking with my 1st coach recently and he was discussing how some of the kids coming through now don't have a 'Go to' shot. One that they can use on most holes to take one side of the fairway out and one that they can count on down the home straight. As we know, the kids nowadays are amazing and come out of college or school with so much confidence however you'd have to think that only a very small % of them make it as Pro's let alone on any major tour. I think back in the day when my old coach came up it was in the Jack, Watson, Seve era through to Norman, Faldo days. Many of these guys and their contemporaries may not have had the raw athleticism and pretty swings that most of the kids do today but they sure could fire under pressure. 

 

So for us mere mortals we certainly need the feeling of confidence while standing over the ball for any given shot. With that right arm dominated short game you're discussing I think of someone like Jason Day who doesn't seem to have a ton of motion through wrist break but still does rotate with hips etc. He seems to just rock his shoulders while maintaining a reasonably rigid arm position.

 

As to the pivot occurring before or after arms, I guess I like to think of it happening concurrently. But there are days when it just feels better than others. Having nice fluffy lies always help but I make myself chip off tight / bare lies too. Can be hazardous and frustrating, but conversely, if you nip it up just nicely then it really empowers you for the rest of the round in my opinion. I also find that when I have a really light grip on the club is when I strike it the best. 


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#126 BROWNMAN

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:26 AM

Devon,
It puzzles me when I read about the need to physically manipulate the club to square the face thru impact. How come? I never do that. Today I won the competition with 44 points and not once did I think about having to square up the club. If you have the correct alignments and the correct grip, the club will square up without having to manipulate it. The things that I do think about during my round is rotating the forearms on the back swing, the slight inward rotation of the right forearm at transition and using both forearms to drive the hands at the ball. The hands are passive. The do what the forearms tell them to do.
As far as spraying the ball, from my experience, most times this happens due to club throwaway. I suspect a lot of players have problems with it but don’t know it.

Having to manipulate the club to square up the club face sounds so much like a form of compensation for an inherent flaw in the swing pattern.

Devon

I too am a bit puzzled Dev,one must never give up seeking the sweet-spot plane,it will find itself if its allowed to,its all in the mechanics,correct mechanics WILL deliver the desired club-face position,if its done right,it cant do anything else unless manipulated,thats where we all fall down,....using short iron practice to discover feel is best way to understand the correct alignments......when im practicing short game is when use all different patterns,and some hand actions that one would think are not compatible with most patterns,by this i mean the art of correct "flipping",in other words flattening right wrist thru impact zone,but it is in fact compatible as long as we adhere to  basics at impact (elbow ahead of hand)-(hand ahead of clubhead)--also having right hand laying flat on plane angle coming in like under-hand karate chop using right elbow as back seat driver coming into impact.....light grip pressures will allow club-head to find its own way to square(i call it glory)..by all means use pivot but can be done without pivot action,another method i employ is to aim hosel into inside quadrant of ball,you wont hit ball with hosel as it will find its own path so long as grip is light  .....what i have written here is just a short iron set of scenario,s that hopefully will assist you in discovering how to square up clubface without "trying " to do it by manipulating clubface manually...Please Dev,take some real time to practice this seperatly away from any other practice you may do.


Edited by BROWNMAN, 11 October 2019 - 09:27 AM.

I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#127 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 01:26 PM

Devon
I too am a bit puzzled Dev,one must never give up seeking the sweet-spot plane,it will find itself if its allowed to,its all in the mechanics,correct mechanics WILL deliver the desired club-face position,if its done right,it cant do anything else unless manipulated,thats where we all fall down,....using short iron practice to discover feel is best way to understand the correct alignments......when im practicing short game is when use all different patterns,and some hand actions that one would think are not compatible with most patterns,by this i mean the art of correct "flipping",in other words flattening right wrist thru impact zone,but it is in fact compatible as long as we adhere to  basics at impact (elbow ahead of hand)-(hand ahead of clubhead)--also having right hand laying flat on plane angle coming in like under-hand karate chop using right elbow as back seat driver coming into impact.....light grip pressures will allow club-head to find its own way to square(i call it glory)..by all means use pivot but can be done without pivot action,another method i employ is to aim hosel into inside quadrant of ball,you wont hit ball with hosel as it will find its own path so long as grip is light  .....what i have written here is just a short iron set of scenario,s that hopefully will assist you in discovering how to square up clubface without "trying " to do it by manipulating clubface manually...Please Dev,take some real time to practice this seperatly away from any other practice you may do.


Brownie,
I would be careful about managing hand position during the down swing. Your observation is correct but it’s how the hands get into that position that is the key. Working the hands instead of the forearms is like putting the cart before the horse. It’s the horse that pulls the cart not the cart pushing the horse.
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#128 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 02:09 PM

Hi, guys,

somewhere we took a wrong track with this discussion. The whole point of Zach / Zen twist is so there is no need to do anything to square the face to the path. I have no idea what I said that got everyone talking about manipulating the clubface manually. It is manual, for sure, but not manipulating or doing anything through impact.

I get the TGM proposition that, done correctly, the club will automatically find its own way to square up automatically. I'm just saying I don't like it when bad shots go left and right. The nearest thing I have found to an English description of TGM swinging is Jim Hardy's description of LOP. Hardy is categorical that the weak point of this method is directional control because of face rotation through impact being timing dependent. A bit off and it goes both ways.

I think Jack has found his own thing with forearms. I will wait to hear what he says once he has digested TGME. I don't think his method is a PA2 release, so I don't think we are actually disagreeing about that.
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#129 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 02:45 PM

On a slightly different topic, I have a lot of books about different methods, as you all know.

In a majority of them, chips are used as a way to practice the particular method being talked about. So many books have a "chipping drill" which effectively rehearses the last part of the swing being discussed.

My point is this. Just because you do a chipping drill to practice your full swing mechanics does not mean that you necessarily use that as your chipping method for chips on the golf course. The drill is just a drill to help with the full swing, not necessarily the best chipping method.

Putting, short game, full swing are different sets of aims and tradeoffs, imo. I work on each quite separately. When it comes to short game there are all sorts of absorbing issues to think about, the lie being a big one. On my course, trajectory is another because of the firm, undulating, greens.

In the context of what we have been talking about, the biggest difference with short game is quitting, imo. The deceleration through the shot when we sense that we are about to hit the chip or pitch too far. I have never encountered a quit in a full shot.

Dave Pelz talks about this quitting issue a great deal. The opposite is also an issue, sensing that we are going too slowly and flipping with the hands. Dave talks about this as well.

For me, the biggest question when choosing a set of mechanics for short game is how it handles quitting and flipping. Then you have to be able to adjust angle of attack to suit the lie, but that is a different topic.

So, for me, my strategy for short game is that I don't want the pivot doing anything to power the shot because I find this inferior in the quitting / flipping sense to an arm powered action.

This is because if I am using a pivot to hit the short shot, my brain still knows how fast I am going and will instinctively quit or flip with the hands if it decides the pivot has set off too fast or too slow.

In contrast, if I keep the pivot as still but relaxed as possible and do everything with the arms, it just seems to be less susceptible to gross quits or flips. I think the arms do their own adjusting on the way down and if you make an effort to hold the right wrist angle with the right hand it all seems to work better for me.
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#130 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 03:29 PM

That last post of mine has helped me clarify my thinking.

Basically, in all this swing mechanics project / process, what I seem to have been doing is this.

For full swing, I have tried all sorts of methods, but have been unwilling to sacrifice straightness for distance. I want to hit the ball straight. Not arrow straight, I just hate hooks and slices. Once I am hitting straight, of course I would love to add some distance. The Mindy method adds a bit of leg power but his method is also about keeping the face square to the path, which is why it appeals to me.

For short game, hooks and slices are not the issue. The shots I hate are the quits and flips. Fats and thins as well, but quits and flips are the worst and often cause fats and thins. I have the same set of mechanics options on my menu as the full swing, but with short game I am optimising for different things, so often choose different options.

And with putting, the thing I hate is missing a short putt. I hate it. Our greens are large, fast, undulating and difficult to read, so I can accept 3 putts here and there, but if I do manage to get within 3 feet and then miss, I am very unhappy.

So, I hate hooks and slices, quits and flips, missing short putts. Controlling those seems to be my main driver in choosing methods.

Secondary to this is trying to add some distance, add some creativity in dealing with lies and trajectories to my short game, and lagging better which mostly involves doing a better job at reading greens but does also involve a different putting method for very long putts.
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#131 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 04:51 PM

Hi, guys,
somewhere we took a wrong track with this discussion. The whole point of Zach / Zen twist is so there is no need to do anything to square the face to the path. I have no idea what I said that got everyone talking about manipulating the clubface manually. It is manual, for sure, but not manipulating or doing anything through impact.
I get the TGM proposition that, done correctly, the club will automatically find its own way to square up automatically. I'm just saying I don't like it when bad shots go left and right. The nearest thing I have found to an English description of TGM swinging is Jim Hardy's description of LOP. Hardy is categorical that the weak point of this method is directional control because of face rotation through impact being timing dependent. A bit off and it goes both ways.
I think Jack has found his own thing with forearms. I will wait to hear what he says once he has digested TGME. I don't think his method is a PA2 release, so I don't think we are actually disagreeing about that.


Devon,
Apologies for misunderstanding the club face squaring issue. I think that I had seen it mentioned several times lately and I made an assumption you were referring to that.

In regards to flipping or club throwaway, one thing that I have found is that you will never flip a club if you drive the hands at the ball with the forearms. It can’t happen. It’s when you use the hands to drive the club that the trouble starts.

On reflecting on my win the other day, I was taken by the way that I was so relaxed over shots that I would normally be very nervous about. One classic situation was a very short shot that was over a bunker, on to a green that sloped slightly away from the bunker. It was the confidence that I had in my swing mechanics that allowed me to make the shot, without quitting or flipping.
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#132 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 05:00 PM

Jack,

great to be back on the same page.

I like the sound of your forearms feel. I notice you said forearms not forearm, can you explain in more detail, please?
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#133 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 06:58 PM

Jack,
great to be back on the same page.
I like the sound of your forearms feel. I notice you said forearms not forearm, can you explain in more detail, please?


That’s correct Devon, I use both forearms. While emphasis is given in instruction about using the right forearm arm, I find that ignoring the left forearm tends to encourage a lazy left side, with the resulting loss of Master Accumulator power through impact. At all times, one needs to be dragging the Power Package into impact. I like to drag it with the left forearm. Hence, throwing both hands at the ball with the forearms.
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#134 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:27 PM

Jack, Brownie,

I just got Mindy Blake's follow up book. "The Technique Barrier". I won't get into the detail of that, suffice to say that Mindy's "big idea" is getting the right elbow deep deep into the shot.

This relates to the TGM idea of "running out of right forearm". And it relates to 2-M-4 pivot speed plus right tricep speed and lagging the right arm straightening.

No need to get into Mindy except to say it got me really focussed on how, exactly, to get the right elbow deep into the shot, avoiding running out of etc etc. This is the first time I have really focussed on this topic.

The answer, of course, is what the right shoulder does. The right shoulder has to go deep as well. I find that to be a slightly tricky question.

With a conventional swing, the right shoulder can turn into a position that is sort of stuck relative to moving deep into the shot.

Interestingly, with the Mindy open stance and the general "out to in" idea of this thread, it becomes more straightforward to see how to get the right shoulder deep so the right elbow can go deep as well.

In a roundabout way, Jack, I think this relates to the Master Accumulator and forearms thing you just posted about.

So, next up for me is getting deeper with the right elbow and right shoulder. If it stopped raining here, I would be able to give it a go. Will report back when the weather improves, hopefully before Spring.

#135 BROWNMAN

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:11 PM

Brownie,
I would be careful about managing hand position during the down swing. Your observation is correct but it’s how the hands get into that position that is the key. Working the hands instead of the forearms is like putting the cart before the horse. It’s the horse that pulls the cart not the cart pushing the horse.

line 6......adhere to basics at impact,


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE




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