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Out To In Feel?


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 04:23 PM

Bear with me, this will take a few paras to set up the topic.

I was watching a "tv special" all about the cricketer Kevin Pietersen. He was South African by birth but qualified to play for England. That was controversial, plus he was also a controversial character, but hugely talented.

As part of the program, they were chatting to Kevin in the middle of a pro am in SA. He is a very good golfer. But at one point they briefly asked Ernie Els to comment on Kevin's golf game. Ernie's comment was this:

"cricketers play golf in to out like a cover drive, but golf is played out to in".

No further discussion or explanation.

Quiet separately, I have been following the Jim Venetos thread here. He twists the body at setup, and keeps it twisted as he hits with his arms. I gave that a proper try in practice yesterday and the feel reminded me of the Els quote. Relative to the body, using the Venetos method, the arms feel out to in, to me, rather than going around the body.

I started this topic because my instinct tells me there is something important in this general area. Some misconception I have been living with for a long time?

Other comments come to mind. Ben Doyle talked about the "circle on the ground illusion". Trevino said he found he hit the ball better when he took the club back to the outside.

So, I am pondering the implications of the idea that "golf is played out to in" and was wondering what other people thought about this.
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#2 OldBogey

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:38 PM

A batsman plays some shots left, others to the right and still more variety. If he played them all in precisely the same way, he wouldn't last long at the crease.

With golf, we try to play all our drives in precisely the same way (sometimes adjusted to achieve a deliberate shape). So a comparison between the two is not valid in this context.

With a golfers setup, most try and align their feet, hips and shoulders along the same line. But at impact, those three are not aligned. The 'feel' as to whether the stroke is out to in depends a lot on to what body part the golfer is comparing his swing. With sufficient practice, he can attain consistency in the direction of his swing and whether he feels as though his swing is heading in or out depends on what he is basing his feel on (feet, hips, shoulders or some other part of his anatomy). What Els feels is irrelevant to what others feel.
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#3 Toph

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:48 PM

Although Ernie obviously knows much more than me I can’t say l agree. My coach says natural golf swing should be in to out and a draw shape. Ernie May be talking about a feel he has on the basis of natural in to out shape. What we feel and what we do are different things. Out to in will always tend to a weak fade or pull surely.
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#4 OldBogey

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:55 PM

Although Ernie obviously knows much more than me I can’t say l agree. My coach says natural golf swing should be in to out and a draw shape. Ernie May be talking about a feel he has on the basis of natural in to out shape. What we feel and what we do are different things. Out to in will always tend to a weak fade or pull surely.


Some RH players align themselves to the right then play out to in straight down the middle.
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#5 Devongolfer

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 06:42 PM

First, I am not attached to this. Just a discussion, a question.

What struck me was the matter of fact manner of Ernie's comment, and the fact that it was Ernie.

I have watched Ernie up close on the practice ground at Wentworth, standing behind him, and I don't think he plays with the club going out to in. So I agree with OB, this is about feel and we don't have much to go on.

The other thing that got my attention was who he was talking about. KP is a very good golfer by amateur standards, 6 I think, and a natural athlete. Yet Ernie is saying that he, KP, along with cricketers in general, suffer from a misconception about the golf swing.

In all my golfing process, I have often had a nagging feeling that I am missing something important. This may not be it, there may something else I am missing entirely. But when Ernie says a naturally talented person may suffer from a basic misconception of the golf swing, I am interested.

So, next step for me is to explore what "out to in feel" might be, bearing in mind that I don't think it is as simple as swinging the club out to in across the line. I think it is, as OB says, a feel that one part of the body is moving out to in, relative to some other part.

#6 Weetbix

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 08:00 PM

Out to in doesn't translate to weak - there are many long faders out there

Bubba
DJ
Nicklaus unless the course required a draw
Hogan preferred a power fade

I have no idea what Els meant if he was actually expounding a principle of the golf swing, but as has been mentioned it could be a personal feel

I suppose it could also refer to the fact that in tour level swings everything is going inside through impact except possibly the club head

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#7 Devongolfer

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 01:06 AM

Weeti,

great to have you thinking about this too.

I have been having a think about this, trying to deconstruct Ernie's comments, in preparation for a trip to my golf club tomorrow.

Several things occur to me

1: I don't think Ernie suffers from "feel ain't real", with all the video and coaching he has at his disposal. Something really must be out to in
2: I have been playing imaginary cover drives at home trying to work out what is moving in to out relative to what. Maybe the cricket bat, hands and arms are moving in to out relative to the body
3: the only thing that seems anatomically possible to move out to in is hands and arms relative to the body; maybe Ernie is saying that the hands, arms and club move out to in relative to the body?
4: the final effect, when viewing the club relative to the target line still needs to end up in to out, that is what we see. I don't think we see the club moving out to in, I don't think that is it at all.
5: So, my conclusion is that Ernie is saying the hands and arms with the club move from out to in relative to the body, while the body is rotating. The in to out from the pivot is greater than the out to in from the arms relative to the body, giving a net effect which is in to out

All of this could be 100% nonsense. I accept that.

But I can see a couple of possible scenarios that might make sense.

First, let us imagine you want to create an in to out path for the club. "common sense" might lead a player to think they should create this in to out path using the arms. To do that, I would take the arms back and around, then hit in to out. But might that cause an OTT move to get around the right side? Or some other problem?

Second, I had one weird practice a few weeks ago. I had a practice all planned out, then saw a super slo mo of Justin Thomas. The angle of the video was unusual, it was taken from a position ahead of the player (further down the hole) and to his right, looking back. I had an ah ha moment, a clear sense that I could understand the move Justin was making.

I went down to the practice ground and tried to re-create this move, and started hitting the ball really well, shot after shot. Later, during my round, I lost the feel. But, thinking back, I could describe Justin's downswing as having hands moving out to in relative to his body, as he pivoted through the shot.

A big stretch, I know, but could the first point be the "misunderstanding that cricketers make"? Could the Justin move be the Els' move?

What could possibly go wrong tomorrow?

#8 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 06:09 AM

So, I am pondering the implications of the idea that "golf is played out to in" and was wondering what other people thought about this.

 

I think Ernie was referring to the magic secret of golf

 

"whether players breath out or in as they hit the ball".


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#9 Weetbix

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 06:19 AM

If that's what he meant it's a strange thing to link to a cricketer playing in to out as I don't see a cricketer's arms moving in to put relative to their body to hit a cover drive

But maybe they do

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#10 hack2489

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 06:51 AM

Where's our resident former cricketer who's only had only lesson?

'hit it like a cover drive', I do believe is what he was told and relayed to us in a comment on here somewhere!

#11 hack2489

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 06:52 AM

I think Ernie was referring to the magic secret of golf

"whether players breath out or in as they hit the ball".


Fu.ck.

😲

Something else to consider as I stand over the ball. 🤔

I don't need MORE swing thoughts. 🤪

Edited by hack2489, 18 September 2019 - 06:53 AM.


#12 Toph

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 08:12 AM

Devon. Are you really going to mess around with your swing on the basis of a flippant remark made about a completely different golfer? One which you don’t either understand nor are sure is correct anyway?
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#13 Devongolfer

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 01:18 PM

Sure, why not? It is stuff like this that keeps me playing. What is the worst that can happen? Lose a few balls, have to buy the coffee for the guys I am playing with?

If I have to back track to what I have been doing, no problem.

There is the stuff I understand that I choose not to do because it makes no sense to me, like rotating the face through impact or laying the club down onto a new plane on the downswing.

But this is one I am not sure I understand, yet have an instinct that it might be important. So, worth some time to try and figure out.
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#14 OldBogey

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 02:11 PM

I agree with Toph's remark. But some of us can't follow direct instructions (e.g. how to swing a club) without understanding the reasoning for each individual action. I'm like that but refuse to complicate a momentary action with a thousand analytics.

I think Devon is the same but wants all those analytics.

Could out to in be good? Maybe.

Consider an ice skater doing pirouettes. The skater gets a rotation going then draws in their limbs toward the centre pivot which (under conservation of energy) causes them to rotate faster. To stop spinning they spread out their arms and legs to slow the rotation.

With golf a lagged club at the top is moved out from the pivot point into release which should thus slow the rotation speed. Drawing the arms out to in may help counter that negativity and help release the club. I've thought of drawing in my gut near the bottom of the downswing but I doubt I could do it quick enough to have any effect. On the other hand, drawing the arms in would reduce the radius of the swing's circle.

Lots of conflicting forces there, but maybe 'out to in' might help. Or maybe not.
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#15 OldBogey

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 02:13 PM

Where's Zen when you need him?
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