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#1 languid

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 05:00 PM

There are a few new things that are probably not known because other things received more attention with the massive 2019 Rules Changes.

 

I prepared some stuff for my Club contacts.  Some of it follows. 

 

For my contacts I added some material showing the significance of Marking Lifting and Replacing with a ball moved on the putting green by Natural Forces.  See 9.3.  

 

 

LIFTING BALL 

 

It is reasonable to think that means only picking up the ball, lifting it a finite distance above the spot where it lies. 

 

There is much more now!

 

Marking, Lifting and Cleaning Ball

“This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

 

  This introduces new concepts on the meaning of “lift”.

 

A spin or rotation around the ball’s axis without necessarily moving the ball off the ground is a "lift".  

 

Moving the ball off its spot is also “lifting” in the new jargon. The ball does not have to lose contact with the surface. 

 

“Rotation”

Visualise placing a ball-marker behind the ball, holding the ball between thumb and fingers and rotating the ball on its spot without any loss of contact with the surface. You might do this to line up a stripe on the ball. You have “lifted” the ball. When you release the ball on the spot it has been marked, lifted and replaced.  Remarkable!

 

“Otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot."

"Ball May Be Lifted in Any Manner

There are no restrictions on how a ball may be lifted so long as the ball is not lifted in a way that deliberately tests the putting green (Rule 13.1e).
For example
, after the spot of the ball is marked on the putting green, the player may lift the ball with the back of the putter or may move it to the side with a club."   (Interpretation 14.1a/1)

 

 

Casual knocking the ball away to the side with the back of the club for example, has been stated as acceptable in past Rules.  Decision 20-1/22.

 

 

 

 



#2 OldBogey

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 05:20 PM

Why, oh why, do they make something so simple into something that is far more complicated?
Golflink
Olinda Golf Club
Warragul Country Club
People say that nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
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#3 languid

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 05:36 PM

Why, oh why, do they make something so simple into something that is far more complicated?

I think it is possible to deduce the reason for the change.
It relates to practical methods players adopt.

It actually makes sense.

Why not have a go at using your strong mind and powers of deduction?
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#4 Toph

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 06:08 PM

Why, oh why, do they make something so simple into something that is far more complicated?

Because if you don’t define something you have arguments
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http://www.golf.org....icap/4070201550
What can possibly go wrong?

#5 languid

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 08:35 AM

To have things simple on the Putting Green go back to the start. No marking and lifting, just play the ball.
Because of stymies, you would need to consider a new Rule for putting first. Balls very close together would be another thing.
The Rules evolved over centuries. Marking, Lifting and Replacing being normal for a long time, now.
A particular development has been players and manufacturers applying markings which assist the player in lining up the ball for line of putt.
A common way of preparing for a putt is mark, lift and replace handling the ball rotating it so the applied marking is oriented where the player wants it to be.
This might be done very close to the surface.
It can be the ball never loses contact with the surface.
In this case, under the now superseded Rule, it could be argued with plain English that the ball has not been lifted and replaced.
I think the Rule change is there to kill that argument.
On the move aside read the text of Decision 20-1/22. See ”equivalent to”.

#6 OldBogey

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 05:47 PM

Surely the objective is to ensure that a player is neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by having his ball put in a wrong place. Provided that objective is met, why should it matter who and how the ball is lifted and replaced?

Surely all the rule has to specify is that the position of the ball is marked before lifting and that it is replaced on the same spot. No complications as to which fingers are used, whose fingers, whether the ball is turned or rolled, how the person held their tongue, what was said, whether they farted, etc. Provided the ball is put on the right spot, that should be all that matters.
Golflink
Olinda Golf Club
Warragul Country Club
People say that nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
West Gippsland Veterans Champion 2017 & 2018
Olinda Golf Club B Grade champion 2018

#7 Toph

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 06:28 PM

Surely the objective is to ensure that a player is neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by having his ball put in a wrong place. Provided that objective is met, why should it matter who and how the ball is lifted and replaced?

Surely all the rule has to specify is that the position of the ball is marked before lifting and that it is replaced on the same spot. No complications as to which fingers are used, whose fingers, whether the ball is turned or rolled, how the person held their tongue, what was said, whether they farted, etc. Provided the ball is put on the right spot, that should be all that matters.

“You lifted your ball without marking it”
“No I didn’t. I just rotated it”
http://www.golf.org....icap/4070201550
What can possibly go wrong?

#8 OldBogey

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 06:46 PM

“You lifted your ball without marking it”
“No I didn’t. I just rotated it”


If the ball was not moved away from its position, there would be no doubt that it was correctly positioned afterwards. If you're going to take the ball away from its position, e.g. to clean it, of course the spot must be marked.

Think of the objective: ensure the ball is in the right place. Nothing else is important.

There's too much nitty gritty in the rules. The more words that are used, the more they can be misinterpreted, even deliberately so.
Golflink
Olinda Golf Club
Warragul Country Club
People say that nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
West Gippsland Veterans Champion 2017 & 2018
Olinda Golf Club B Grade champion 2018

#9 Toph

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 08:45 PM

If the ball was not moved away from its position, there would be no doubt that it was correctly positioned afterwards. If you're going to take the ball away from its position, e.g. to clean it, of course the spot must be marked.

Think of the objective: ensure the ball is in the right place. Nothing else is important.

There's too much nitty gritty in the rules. The more words that are used, the more they can be misinterpreted, even deliberately so.

You are wrong. But I’m too pissed and tired and full of pizza to bother trying to explain why.
http://www.golf.org....icap/4070201550
What can possibly go wrong?

#10 languid

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 01:27 AM

Surely the objective is to ensure that a player is neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by having his ball put in a wrong place. Provided that objective is met, why should it matter who and how the ball is lifted and replaced?
Surely all the rule has to specify is that the position of the ball is marked before lifting and that it is replaced on the same spot. No complications as to which fingers are used, whose fingers, whether the ball is turned or rolled, how the person held their tongue, what was said, whether they farted, etc. Provided the ball is put on the right spot, that should be all that matters.

You're not making sense. As well you are trying nonsense as a substitute for reason.

#11 languid

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 01:31 AM

You are wrong. But I’m too pissed and tired and full of pizza to bother trying to explain why.


When you are fully recovered don't bother to try.....he doesn't really want to know.

#12 rogolf

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 08:52 AM

You are wrong. But I’m too pissed and tired and full of pizza to bother trying to explain why.

It's known as an OBB - an Old Bogey B***h.


Edited by rogolf, 25 August 2019 - 08:53 AM.

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#13 OldBogey

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 12:12 PM

I'm not trying to describe what the rules ARE.

I'm suggesting a simpler attitude to what the rules could be.


Golflink
Olinda Golf Club
Warragul Country Club
People say that nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day.
West Gippsland Veterans Champion 2017 & 2018
Olinda Golf Club B Grade champion 2018

#14 rogolf

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 12:40 PM

I'm not trying to describe what the rules ARE.

I'm suggesting a simpler attitude to what the rules could be.

Good luck with that.  You could start a new thread instead of b'hing in the rest of them!


Edited by rogolf, 25 August 2019 - 12:41 PM.


#15 Toph

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 02:17 PM

I'm not trying to describe what the rules ARE.
I'm suggesting a simpler attitude to what the rules could be.

What is simpler than mark your ball before you touch or move it in any way?
http://www.golf.org....icap/4070201550
What can possibly go wrong?




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