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Jim Venetos Swing


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#1 BROWNMAN

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 01:13 PM

i thought it best to start new topic on jim venetos so the other thread was not hijacked ,love to hear more about this....cheers


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#2 Devongolfer

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 04:46 PM

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=RxGEJBlx_sw

Hi, Brownman,

I thought we should have a video link to start this discussion. If you click this one, several others of his follow on, by which time you will have the whole thing.

I think this is worth discussing because this represents a totally different starting point. 99% ? of golf instruction has a starting point of professional golfers.

As you know, I finally gave up on pro swings for my own game and have been searching for something much simpler.

In Jim's swing pattern, I recognise several key points that I have been discovering for myself through my own process.

1: he uses the left arm as the plane arm. He is not laying the club down, nor is he trying to line up the club with the right forearm
2: in his setup, he creates a lot of Space, meaning he keeps his right hip out of the way of his right elbow
3: he is not trying for leg or pivot power. I have found that every time I try to drive with my pivot, I hit a few good shots but consistency goes to pot
4: the hard to do part of his method is to start down slowly and stay turned. That is the fix for OTT.
5: he creates Time, because he is not chasing his pivot with the arms desperately trying to catch up. He just stands there with all the time in the world
6: notice he stands up after impact, according to Jim Hardy that is a natural characteristic of left arm as plane arm swings.

For senior golfers, especially, I reckon this makes a lot of sense. Far more sense than looking at pro swings.

Obviously, this swing would not have the same level of potential performance as a pro swing, I don't think we will see this swing on tour any time soon.

But, to adapt a saying, "a simple swing, well executed, beats an advanced swing, poorly executed".
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#3 BROWNMAN

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 06:53 PM

Dev,thanks for the link,good beginning,......imo..i feel that he uses the left arm as radius check, also,looks to that he has already got his r/forearm in line at address....i havent been able to try it out as yet due to knee probs,in my minds eye it looks like there is right sided hitting ,he seems as if he just stresses shaft down into ball,in my own hitting pattern ,i hit better when i stress shaft and not rely on speed.


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
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What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#4 Devongolfer

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 05:35 AM

Bogey,

interesting. I had not seen anything about it before this week.

Are you saying you like this swing? Have you tried it?
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#5 BROWNMAN

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 09:17 AM

On tour : have a look at how Katherine Kirk and Peter Lonard swing, looks same as this.

 

there are lots of pros teaching this new latest cookie cutter method.

 

In old days this golfer going for a lesson the pro would have said you have a reverse pivot and introduced a big hip turn and shoulder turn to the golfer.

KATHERINE HULL KIRK - DRIVER GOLF SWING DOWN THE LINE LATE 2013 - REGULAR & SLOW MOTION - 1080p HD - YouTube             Bogey,  cant see it being too similar to venetos havent got a front on though


Edited by BROWNMAN, 28 July 2019 - 09:27 AM.

I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#6 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 10:10 AM

For what it’s worth, my thoughts on a low impact/stress swing for older golfers is to spread the load as much as possible, over the whole body. By limiting the loading action to a restricted section of the body, that section has got to be stressed more than in a full body action. That is, assuming that you want to achieve a similar shot length. Just looking at that JV video, I can’t imagine that the ball will travel very far with that swing. The lack of leg action can’t be good for the lower back, surely?

#7 Zenstb

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 10:34 AM

I guess finding what works best for each person.
These days as science is being accepted in golf and instructors are becoming better educated are starting to understand the biomechanics of the swing better.
Although they are starting to understand sliding the hips vs lateral shift.
The common theme these days is to stay centered although understanding how to stay centred.
Coaches are starting to learn about using the ground and feet and shift the centre of mass of the hips. As an example old days was shift the entire body to right side. They called this weight shift. Although they are now understanding is applying force in the rear foot then pushing off the right foot into the left foot to produce rotation and lower body stability. Use the feet rather than moving the whole body to the rear side. You can create force in the right foot by staying centred.

What ever works best is fine although what I tend to see is the average golfer they already stay on their left side or lead side and go into early excessive hip tilt. The problems I see is they lose rotation and power.

There is another method called Gary Edwin with similar ideas.

This is a video of a golfer who tried to stay on the lead foot and some of the problematic issues it caused for him. A common fault is average golfers go into early excessive hip tilt. Explained in video We went to more centered he gain more power, consistency and accuracy.


Edited by Zenstb, 28 July 2019 - 10:36 AM.

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#8 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 12:43 PM

KATHERINE HULL KIRK - DRIVER GOLF SWING DOWN THE LINE LATE 2013 - REGULAR & SLOW MOTION - 1080p HD - YouTube             Bogey,  cant see it being too similar to venetos havent got a front on though

 

As Zen said earlier she uses the other "trendy swing" being promoted by Gary Edwin. His another method with similar ideas its called stack and tilt which looks similar to Venetos in follow through.

 

I know two amateurs who have tried this method hurt their backs and then couldn't go back to original swings


Edited by Bogey Golfer, 28 July 2019 - 12:51 PM.

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#9 Zenstb

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 02:02 PM

As Zen said earlier she uses the other "trendy swing" being promoted by Gary Edwin. His another method with similar ideas its called stack and tilt which looks similar to Venetos in follow through.

I know two amateurs who have tried this method hurt their backs and then couldn't go back to original swings

This is common what tends to happen is their golf swing becomes a lateral swing. They left bend the spine on the backswing and right lateral bends in the downswing. The lateral bending of the spine, this locks the facets in the spine. When you try to rotate with the facets lock, this shears the facets and over time develop back issues.
This is some information I put forward to golf coaches and the topic was about spine biomechanics in an education forum, how the spine functions.

Problematic issues is understanding spine biomechanics. As example spine extension, the spine isn't necessarily going into the actual spine extending. Personal I dislike the term spine extension. On 3d the entire spine moves towards extension from L5 to T1 as a whole unit not per say T12 to T1. If the spine extended 20 degrees the facets in the spine lock and cut off rotation. The danger here is trying to rotate overtime you shear and damage the facets.
If you pay attention generally when you see spine extension in the back swing the hips are heading towards extension. With tour players on the downswing when head toward flexion will see the hips going into flexion too. Average golfers hips extension and flexion of the Spine. This locks the mid back and lose rotation. Common.
Left and right lateral bending again very misunderstood. The spine doesn't go into much lateral bending if it did again the facets lock. There is a few combinations as the hips tilt the spine moves perpendicular and tilts. The second is the shoulders floating. I can drop my left and to produce shoulder tilt. This is entirely different to left and right lateral bending of the spine.

Edited by Zenstb, 28 July 2019 - 02:13 PM.

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#10 Devongolfer

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 04:29 PM

Zen,

I love those Gears clips you do, but I am not sure I fully understand.

To my eye, the orange swing in Gears just looks all wrong. I agree, the blue is much better.

What I am not sure about is whether the Venetos swing is as bad as the orange swing.

Can I check I have understood, please?

What I think we are saying is

1: we agree that "old school" methods that have big weight shifts onto the right then back onto the left are not the way to go?
2: "centred" basically means no shifting? My feel for that is to keep a spot just above my bum crack stable, does that seem ok to you?
3: another way to eliminate shifting would be to keep weight on the left side, per Venetos, or stack and tilt, but you advise not to do that from a biomechanics / spine / back point of view?

#11 Zenstb

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 05:26 PM

Zen,

I love those Gears clips you do, but I am not sure I fully understand.

To my eye, the orange swing in Gears just looks all wrong. I agree, the blue is much better.

What I am not sure about is whether the Venetos swing is as bad as the orange swing.

Can I check I have understood, please?

What I think we are saying is

1: we agree that "old school" methods that have big weight shifts onto the right then back onto the left are not the way to go?
2: "centred" basically means no shifting? My feel for that is to keep a spot just above my bum crack stable, does that seem ok to you?
3: another way to eliminate shifting would be to keep weight on the left side, per Venetos, or stack and tilt, but you advise not to do that from a biomechanics / spine / back point of view?

Devon,
The before in the orange is he is doing as he was instructed on 2d video he looks like the swing model he learnt. The problematic issues is you cant see what the centre of mass of the lower and centre of mass of the upper body is doing on 2d. On 2d he just looks like a left side player.

1) The COM of the hips and shoulders with Tour players do shift toward the rear side a few inches to the right of centre of the feet. However the difference is they don't slide the body to the right side onto the rear foot so the hips COM and Shoulder com is directly over the right foot. This was the misunderstanding over the years. Now we understand we use the ground and through rotations the com's move towards the right foot.
To get force into our lead feet we have to move from the right towards the left side. Pushing off the right foot shift towards the lead foot and force into the lead foot produces rotation of the hips and stability.

2) Staying centered is complicate referring back to 1) even though body appears to stay centered, the Com's of the hips and shoulders are still moving right.(I'll post a video up tommorrow of tours). We have to shift right slightly to apply force in the right foot so the lower body stays stable on the backswing and not slide. Staying centered.
The saying goes to stay centered we have to move the Com's to the right.
What I tend to see is when average golfer tries to stay centered the COM'S of the hips and shoulders move forward. They are stuck on the left side and develop the lateral swing. The other break down I see will be explained in 3) below.

3) Not only from a spine and biomechanics prospective. Simple can't produce a very good rotation golf swing. The other issues is stay on the left side is another breakdown I see is the upper body moves forward in front of the ball on the backswing. Because all your weight is on the lead side there is no force in the rear foot. What happens is the com of the hips move to the right. So the upper body is way infront too far over the lead side or lead foot and the hips have slided to the right. When the golfer starts the down swing the hips move forward and the upperbody moves back and you get stalling of the body. Early right lateral bend of the Spine and early club release. You have low point issues. Thin, fat etc. I call this a sea saw swing. Lateral bend left on backswing. Lateral bend right downswing.
In summary by staying left you have no force in the right foot to stop the lower body sliding to the right. Makes things worse for the golfer.
My suggestion would be if you want to go down this path. Ensure you have pressure or force in the right foot during the backswing . If you don't your to far on your left side.

Stack and Tilt. Many miss understand. Stack and Tilt advocate staying centred these days. ( Think they adjusted their model or poor communicated from day 1). What they mean by Stacked is the shoulders are stacked on top of the hips or inline at the top of the swing and centered then move forward during the backswing. Although they advocated going forward forward forward and won't concede the Com's move right. They claim you stay centered then move forward. Only one guy I see do that is Bryson. The rest all move right on center of the feet on the backswing.

Edited by Zenstb, 28 July 2019 - 05:38 PM.

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#12 xrman1954

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 06:08 PM

I have been using the Venetos method ( as I picked it up  from YouTube/ not from his website instruction). 

My back is a bit " suspect" after 45 years of head forward posture during surgery, therefore I am a good test case if this swing would exacerbate back issues. To date after 3 weeks i can say my left side ribs are a bit sore after golf. It feels like day 2 or 3 after an exercise class. Sore intercostal muscles maybe. 

 

To summarize his method.

1) line up with foot line parallel to target

2) club face square to target line.

3) pivot shoulder line closed to target line

4) keep the body still and swing your arms /club ( it will be an in to out swing) through the ball.

 

Result: a pretty good strike , a nice divot and a small draw shape. I have not lost distance, in fact I might be longer with my driver.

With so few moving parts to co-ordinate it is pretty easy to get a good outcome.

For beginners / old blokes like me, combined with single length irons this is the way to go IMO.

 

I don't think it will ever be used on Tour, but then again, I will never be a Tour level player and it might even make golf more popular due to its simplicity!


Edited by xrman1954, 28 July 2019 - 06:12 PM.

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#13 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 06:50 PM

I have been using the Venetos method ( as I picked it up  from YouTube/ not from his website instruction). 
My back is a bit " suspect" after 45 years of head forward posture during surgery, therefore I am a good test case if this swing would exacerbate back issues. To date after 3 weeks i can say my left side ribs are a bit sore after golf. It feels like day 2 or 3 after an exercise class. Sore intercostal muscles maybe. 
 
To summarize his method.
1) line up with foot line parallel to target
2) club face square to target line.
3) pivot shoulder line closed to target line
4) keep the body still and swing your arms /club ( it will be an in to out swing) through the ball.
 
Result: a pretty good strike , a nice divot and a small draw shape. I have not lost distance, in fact I might be longer with my driver.
With so few moving parts to co-ordinate it is pretty easy to get a good outcome.
For beginners / old blokes like me, combined with single length irons this is the way to go IMO.
 
I don't think it will ever be used on Tour, but then again, I will never be a Tour level player and it might even make golf more popular due to its simplicity!


XRman,
Will be interesting to see how your back holds up after six months, particularly if you are playing two or three times a week.

#14 Zenstb

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 06:15 PM

Zen,

I love those Gears clips you do, but I am not sure I fully understand.
 

 

Devon,

This is the video of tour players, some won on the US tour and some won Majors. This video shows  how tour players move the centre of the mass of hips and Centre of mass of the shoulders during the backswing. They all move the hips and shoulders right of centre between the feet. So the move to the right between the centre of the feet and the rear foot.  What is interesting in order to stay centred the move slightly to the right. The other reason is to apply force in the rear foot and wind up their muscles throughout their body. Also to be able to push off there right foot,then into the lead foot to produce hip rotation and lower body stability.  


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#15 xrman1954

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 06:19 PM

It will be interesting indeed. Seeing that the swing has minimal twisiting of the spine, I expect that I should not experience any more back discomfort  than is usual for me. I plan to embark on a  more regimented exercise program again, so this might skew any results regarding back discomfort.


I can spell reasonably well, even if in American at times. I cannot type well , so please look for the key I intended to use within one key of the strange one I used.





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