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If Not Pelz, Who?


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 04:09 PM

I have switched to short game now I think I have simplified my full swing as much as I can.

I have Dave Pelz's short game bible, but in the first instance, this thread asks, who else is around who is as good or better than Pelz, if anyone?

A couple of things have got me started.

I play on a links type course, which at any time of year has virtually no grass under the ball. In our summer, the ground is pretty firm as well, though not as hard as hard summer clay conditions on parkland courses.

I put a ball on a hard surface at eye level with my wedge next to the ball. With the bounce of the wedge and the shaft upright, on a hard surface there is no way the face of the club hits the ball, the leading edge will.

To get decent contact, I need forward shaft lean. But then it is easy to get steep. Through experimentation, I realised that hard tight conditions need forward lean to reduce the bounce and get the face to make contact, but also a shallow angle of attack.

Switch to bunkers, which also are different with the seasons. Usually, my bunker play is good enough, but it had gone off. I know the two basic techniques, leading edge in first for the chunk and run and using the bounce. It turned out my game was off because I was too shallow, I really needed more of a downward thump.

So, it seems to me there are some variables in what you do

1. how much you expose the bounce or manipulate to add or reduce bounce by squaring or opening, forward lean or upright
2: the angle of attack, shallow or steep
3: the conditions, firm or soft, grassy or tight etc etc

So, I am looking for recommendations on short game apart from Pelz. Is there anyone who explains how to adjust angle of attack from shallow to steep, and how best to match the bounce to the conditions?

I want to avoid instructors who just play on lush American style courses, I want someone who talks about tight links.

#2 BROWNMAN

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 04:58 PM

I have switched to short game now I think I have simplified my full swing as much as I can.

I have Dave Pelz's short game bible, but in the first instance, this thread asks, who else is around who is as good or better than Pelz, if anyone?

A couple of things have got me started.

I play on a links type course, which at any time of year has virtually no grass under the ball. In our summer, the ground is pretty firm as well, though not as hard as hard summer clay conditions on parkland courses.

I put a ball on a hard surface at eye level with my wedge next to the ball. With the bounce of the wedge and the shaft upright, on a hard surface there is no way the face of the club hits the ball, the leading edge will.

To get decent contact, I need forward shaft lean. But then it is easy to get steep. Through experimentation, I realised that hard tight conditions need forward lean to reduce the bounce and get the face to make contact, but also a shallow angle of attack.

Switch to bunkers, which also are different with the seasons. Usually, my bunker play is good enough, but it had gone off. I know the two basic techniques, leading edge in first for the chunk and run and using the bounce. It turned out my game was off because I was too shallow, I really needed more of a downward thump.

So, it seems to me there are some variables in what you do

1. how much you expose the bounce or manipulate to add or reduce bounce by squaring or opening, forward lean or upright
2: the angle of attack, shallow or steep
3: the conditions, firm or soft, grassy or tight etc etc

So, I am looking for recommendations on short game apart from Pelz. Is there anyone who explains how to adjust angle of attack from shallow to steep, and how best to match the bounce to the conditions?

I want to avoid instructors who just play on lush American style courses, I want someone who talks about tight links.

answer to this is easy,pelz is renown ,stick with his principles,and the other one is "you".By this i mean ,is your simply must practice his advice and simply get better at what your learning,you have so much at your disposal ,different clubs,.. bounce.. and the thing that a lot of golfers dont understand are different hinges that are available to use,its just understanding and trusting them,.......watch the bullets fly here.!..do them all with FLW thats where the fun begins......good luck,i think this topic will be real good reading......this is the part of the game where we short hitters can get to have same results as a pro


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#3 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 06:32 PM

I have switched to short game now I think I have simplified my full swing as much as I can.

I have Dave Pelz's short game bible, but in the first instance, this thread asks, who else is around who is as good or better than Pelz, if anyone?

A couple of things have got me started.

I play on a links type course, which at any time of year has virtually no grass under the ball. In our summer, the ground is pretty firm as well, though not as hard as hard summer clay conditions on parkland courses.

I put a ball on a hard surface at eye level with my wedge next to the ball. With the bounce of the wedge and the shaft upright, on a hard surface there is no way the face of the club hits the ball, the leading edge will.


To get decent contact, I need forward shaft lean. But then it is easy to get steep. Through experimentation, I realised that hard tight conditions need forward lean to reduce the bounce and get the face to make contact, but also a shallow angle of attack.

Switch to bunkers, which also are different with the seasons. Usually, my bunker play is good enough, but it had gone off. I know the two basic techniques, leading edge in first for the chunk and run and using the bounce. It turned out my game was off because I was too shallow, I really needed more of a downward thump.

So, it seems to me there are some variables in what you do

1. how much you expose the bounce or manipulate to add or reduce bounce by squaring or opening, forward lean or upright
2: the angle of attack, shallow or steep
3: the conditions, firm or soft, grassy or tight etc etc

So, I am looking for recommendations on short game apart from Pelz. Is there anyone who explains how to adjust angle of attack from shallow to steep, and how best to match the bounce to the conditions?

I want to avoid instructors who just play on lush American style courses, I want someone who talks about tight links.

 

2 options.

 

1 by far the best and safest shot on links courses is to use a driver or hybrid for chipping or a 7 iron or 8 iron and play bump and run shots, no need to hit the high lob shot on links courses.

 

or if you must hit a high one

 

2 find a local teaching pro who can show you how to play a high shot using the correct bounce of your 56 deg wedge a similar shot to what one would use off a bare lie over bunker

 

.


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#4 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 06:58 PM

Whilst I appreciate people taking the time to offer advice, thanks, at this stage what I am particularly interested in is if anyone knows of a great book or teacher online for links course short game.

Elsewhere on isg, people have mentioned various teachers I had not heard of for the full swing. I am thinking of Luczak, and quite a few others.

For short game, I have quite a few like Pelz and Utley, but they are pretty oriented towards US style courses, not so much links.

It might be that because links courses are in a minority noone has published anything, but I figure if anyone has, someone on isg will know about them. Particlularly since I know Aus has some fantastic sand belt courses.

Edited by Devongolfer, 11 July 2019 - 06:59 PM.


#5 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 09:11 PM

Whilst I appreciate people taking the time to offer advice, thanks, at this stage what I am particularly interested in is if anyone knows of a great book or teacher online for links course short game.

Elsewhere on isg, people have mentioned various teachers I had not heard of for the full swing. I am thinking of Luczak, and quite a few others.

For short game, I have quite a few like Pelz and Utley, but they are pretty oriented towards US style courses, not so much links.

It might be that because links courses are in a minority noone has published anything, but I figure if anyone has, someone on isg will know about them. Particlularly since I know Aus has some fantastic sand belt courses.

 

Mr short game on You tube has some good short game tips but he is from good ol USA. still good short game advice.

the other video is the short one which pops u when you log into ISG site


Edited by Bogey Golfer, 11 July 2019 - 09:15 PM.

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2017 OOM winner at Growling Frog.

2016 A grade winner Moonah legends OOM4.

2015 member of team Vision winners of SGC pennant.

2014 National ISG champion

2014 winner Kooindah waters

2014 winner Magenta shores


2014 first ever hole in 1 in an ISG event, 4th Hole Kooindah waters 19th October

2012 winner of BHIC and gaining a 5 year exemption


#6 golfguy33

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 09:58 PM

I put a ball on a hard surface at eye level with my wedge next to the ball. With the bounce of the wedge and the shaft upright, on a hard surface there is no way the face of the club hits the ball, the leading edge will.

To get decent contact, I need forward shaft lean. But then it is easy to get steep. Through experimentation, I realised that hard tight conditions need forward lean to reduce the bounce and get the face to make contact, but also a shallow angle of attack.

Switch to bunkers, which also are different with the seasons. Usually, my bunker play is good enough, but it had gone off. I know the two basic techniques, leading edge in first for the chunk and run and using the bounce. It turned out my game was off because I was too shallow, I really needed more of a downward thump.

So, I am looking for recommendations on short game apart from Pelz. Is there anyone who explains how to adjust angle of attack from shallow to steep, and how best to match the bounce to the conditions?



Before I recommend someone, could you explain how you've come to those combinations of shaft lean, bounce and angle of attack please ?
Seems that you're contradicting some of the principals required to get the normal results.
Eg : Shaft lean, steep angle of attack, chunk and run shot whilst using the bounce, doesn't compute to me ?
When you say, shaft upright I take it the shaft is vertical at 90* to the ground ?
Honestly interested to get a handle on who to recommend for your question.
Jon...

Edited by golfguy33, 11 July 2019 - 10:00 PM.


#7 BROWNMAN

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 11:21 PM

Im sticking to my first reply...........pelz.......and you..


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#8 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 01:31 AM

hi, gg, happy to chat about the topic. I was going to do that later after I had gathered up any suggestions on books etc.

I will back up a fraction. Last monday, I went to play with some ex work buddies on a parkland course near where I used to live. This was the first time I had played parkland in several years, I switched to a links club about 5 years ago. I used to play parkland and was fine with short game, but on this monday it took me 9 holes to remember how to do it. Parkland short game and links short game: chalk and cheese.

In the past 4 years or so, playing links, my main focus has been full swing mechanics. You may well have seen me posting about that for some time. In that time, I have adapted my short game in a very basic way to links. I use less loft, putt from off the green if the ground is suitable etc etc.

So, now that my main swing project has reached some sort of conclusion, I thought it would be nice to try to work on taking short game to a next level. I am ok, perfectly adequate, at the moment, but basically pretty conservative, not really trying to achieve much more than not stuffing up the shot.

I use ping glide wedges. They are not especially high bounce, but if you setup without forward lean on a hard surface, the leading edge is off the ground.

In parkland, if the ball is sitting on grass, the bounce runs along the ground and the leading edge goes under the ball. The less grass you have and the firmer the ground, the less bounce you want. I think that is pretty standard thinking. If you square the face and lean the shaft forward, the leading edge gets much closer to the ground, ie less bounce.

But on parkland, when you lean the shaft forward, you are often trying to get a steep angle of attack because there might be longish grass behind the ball. That is not the issue on links. On links, a steep angle of attack has less margin for error. You might stick the leading edge into the ground, or catch the ball with the leading edge on the way down.

So, just with my own experimenting, for tight lies without grass behind the ball, reduced bounce (square face, lean forward) but with a shallow attack works best.

I can work through all the various combinations for myself, but it occurred to me that plenty of players before me will have needed to adapt their short games to links conditions, so I was hoping to find something published that covered the topic. Just to save a bit of time and perhaps speed up my rate of learning.

#9 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 02:16 AM

Had a more in depth search of Amazon and have ordered "how to play links golf" by Martin Davis and Colin Montgomerie.

There were only 2 reviews, one person loved it and one hated it. But this was literally the only book I could find and it was only GBP 5.81, so I decided I may as well get it. Colin Montgomerie ought to know about links golf, if anyone does.

I will report back.

Meanwhile, still open to suggestions about gurus, youtubes, books etc.

#10 Weetbix

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 06:25 AM

Steve Johnson on YouTube isn't a guru but he is playing on links so his short game stuff may be of use
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#11 hack2489

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 08:02 AM

....

I have Dave Pelz's short game bible, but in the first instance, this thread asks, who else is around who is as good or better than Pelz, if anyone?

...


Rotella.

https://www.amazon.c...s/dp/1451650167

#12 xrman1954

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 08:22 AM

What about using  a low bounce wedge 4-6 degrees for summer/hard conditions and a higher bounce wedge in winter/soft conditions?

 

I did this when our bunkers were filled with dense hard "sand" . I picked up a used Vokey wedge with 04 degrees bounce which worked well. SInce then our club has renovated the bunker sand with softer stuff, so the 04 dug in too much. I gave the 04 away to a mate and got a  Cobra 58 degree low wide 06 bounce wedge that seems to offer the best of both worlds. A wider sole that copes with soft and a low bounce that reduced skull shots on hard.

 

I second the You Tube teachers Mr. Short Game and Steve Johnson. Very useful material on their channels.


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#13 Zenstb

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 01:34 PM

Without having to change to many things how this player does it may work for your action in the heavy grasses.

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#14 Devongolfer

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 04:13 PM

Still in the research phase of all of this, still waiting for my Montgomerie links book.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=izpkUuAl_TE

I like this, some of you have mentioned George Gankas.

A few things I like.

First, he is dealing with tight lies. ok, not chipping and running, but I think he has other stuff on that.

Keeping the shaft in line with the left arm is a Steve Stricker type action. I like this because it is a "what, not how" and it is compatible with my "left arm as plane arm" action I am currently using for the full swing. And it gives a shallower angle of attack, which imo, is the thing you want on tight lies.

I am still looking around, but I thought this was good enough to be worth a mention.

#15 Halfer5

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 04:36 PM

Steve Johnson on YouTube isn't a guru but he is playing on links so his short game stuff may be of use


I’m pretty sure he plays at Peebles which about 25miles inland (south) of Edinburgh and not a links course. I like his videos though...




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