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3 Minute Rule - Looking For Ball And Provisional


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#1 Member Status Pending

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:42 PM

A player hits his ball into the long rough, then plays a provisional which goes in the same area. Does the player only get three minutes to look for both ball or 3 minutes for each ball? 


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#2 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:00 PM

concurrent


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#3 languid

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:27 PM

You have 3 minutes Search time for your original ball. The fact that the Provisional ball was likely to be in the same area is irrelevant.
Think about the logic.
There would need to be a special, additional Rule written for that circumstance.
So if you happen to notice you PB when you are searching for original, nice, a bit of comfort.
The search is all about the original ball.
Then if not found you have search time for the PB.
That search starts after the first 3 minutes search has finished but not until you or your Caddie or partner get to the area where the PB might be.

#4 AAA

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:11 PM

A player hits his ball into the long rough, then plays a provisional which goes in the same area. Does the player only get three minutes to look for both ball or 3 minutes for each ball? 

If the balls are in the same area such that the search is effectively for either ball, then you only get 3 minutes. Otherwise you are allowed 3 minutes for each ball.

 

This was the answer given in a decision previously. I have no reason to believe the situation would have changed. But I may be wrong about that.



#5 WendyD

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:23 PM

I agree with AAA(and also admit I could be wrong). :)  I've searched through the Rules and the Interpretations but can't find a new version of the old 27/4. Logic tells me that there is a simultaneous search and a total of 3 minutes is allowed.



#6 languid

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 01:53 AM

Obviously I had not heard of that. Decision.
Both balls may be difficult to find. There is the matter of the broadnesss of the being in an the same area.
What is the size of an area that qualifies for concurrent searching?

There are other concerns that relate to the players ability to assess whether both balls may have come to rest in “reasonable” proximity, whatever that might be.

The search time was 5 minutes.

I cau imagine at some time a “hard line” approach would lead to 27/4.

I think “hard line” is not the style of the ne Rules.

Considering this with 3 minutes search time I would be surprised to see 27/4 reborn in an Interpretation.

I would be very interested to read the justification should it do so.

Pace of play is not enough.

Maybe someone will ask one of the RB’s.

#7 ColinCL

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 03:02 AM

I think it is still there in the new rules but I'm just going out to stand in bucketing rain to support my grandson who is playing in a Primary Schools cup final.  Oh joy.

 

Edit:  Just had time to check the first likelhiood - the Definitions.

 

Interpretation Lost/4 - Search Time When Searching for Two Balls


Edited by ColinCL, 13 June 2019 - 03:04 AM.

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#8 hack2489

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:06 AM

... I'm just going out to stand in bucketing rain to support my grandson who is playing in a Primary Schools cup final.  Oh joy.

 

At 3am :o



#9 hack2489

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:08 AM

A player hits his ball into the long rough, then plays a provisional which goes in the same area ...

 

Sounds like a consistent swing flaw. Perhaps a golf lesson is the solution?


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#10 Commish

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:21 AM

At 3am :o

 

He's in Scotland Hack,  so probably about lunch time over there.


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#11 hack2489

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 02:01 PM

He's in Scotland Hack,  so probably about lunch time over there.

 

Well, that explains the 'bucketing down with rain' too. ;)



#12 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 03:27 PM

It makes no sense for the search time to be concurrent. One can never be certain if the balls are in close proximity, at least, not until they are found. You can not have a rule based upon undefined parameters.
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#13 ColinCL

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 04:24 PM

The football was at 1900 UK time.  His team won; he scored the winning goal; he was polite to the referee; my wallet is lighter.

 

Back to the golf.

 

Your search for a ball is in the area you think it most likely to be.  If the area you think both balls are likely to be is the same, you have the same chance of finding either of them which means you are searching for both at the same time. If you found neither after 3 minutes and were then allowed a further 3 minutes to search the same area for your provisional you would effectively be being allowed 6 minutes for the search for it.

 

In case you haven't found the Interpretation i referred to, some of the Definitions include Interpretations.  This is the full text of Interpretation Lost/4 - Search Time When Searching for Two Balls.

 

When a player has played two balls (such as the ball in play and a provisional ball) and is searching for both, whether the player is allowed two separate three-minute search times depends how close the balls are to each other. 

If the balls are in the same area where they can be searched for at the same time, the player is allowed only three minutes to search for both balls. However, if the balls are in different areas (such as opposite sides of the fairway) the player is allowed a three-minute search time for each ball.


Edited by ColinCL, 13 June 2019 - 04:26 PM.


#14 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 04:34 PM

The football was at 1900 UK time. His team won; he scored the winning goal; he was polite to the referee; my wallet is lighter.

Back to the golf.

Your search for a ball is in the area you think it most likely to be. If the area you think both balls are likely to be is the same, you have the same chance of finding either of them which means you are searching for both at the same time. If you found neither after 3 minutes and were then allowed a further 3 minutes to search the same area for your provisional you would effectively be being allowed 6 minutes for the search for it.

In case you haven't found the Interpretation i referred to, some of the Definitions include Interpretations. This is the full text of Interpretation Lost/4 - Search Time When Searching for Two Balls.

When a player has played two balls (such as the ball [/size]in play[/size] and a [/size]provisional ball[/size]) and is searching for both, whether the player is allowed two separate three-minute search times depends how close the balls are to each other. [/size]
If the balls are in the same area where they can be searched for at the same time, the player is allowed only three minutes to search for both balls. However, if the balls are in different areas (such as opposite sides of the fairway) the player is allowed a three-minute search time for each ball.

That makes no sense to me at all. What defines “the same area”? Is it 10 sq m? Is it 20 sq m?, is it 50sq m? If you think they are in the same area and you give up after 3 minutes but then you find the ball outside the undefined area, is it now a found or still a lost ball?

This rule has so many flaws, I can’t see how it can be used in a practical way.

Edited by Jack_Golfer, 13 June 2019 - 04:35 PM.


#15 ColinCL

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 06:29 PM

In effect you define the area by your search since where you search is rather obviously where you think your ball is likely to be.   And if you think your provisional is in the same area you are clearly looking out for both balls as you search.  I'm not quite seeing your difficulty with this.

 

Your ball is lost 3 minutes after you or your caddie begins to search for it.  It doesn't matter where you find it after time is up, it remains lost.


Edited by ColinCL, 13 June 2019 - 06:31 PM.





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