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When Club Meets Ball


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#1 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:53 PM

My oh my. How do we ever hit a straight shot?

 

Kelvin Miyahira again with lots of extremely high speed video looking at lots of strange things when modern drivers hit balls. And of course drivers have moved on quite a bit since this was written.

 

I'd be very interested in hearing what the trackman and foresight HMT people say about the numbers their software produces. Probably all proprietary but has anybody got any links?

 

http://kelvinmiyahir...gend-of-ki-tora


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#2 Zenstb

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:59 AM

Old outdated information,
companies like trackman also use high speed camera with their radar these days. Foresight are using high speed cameras these days. Pretty accurate.
In Korea where Gears does product testing using an iron Byron, phantom cameras and Gears they have compared foresight and its pretty accurate, matches the Phantom cameras .
Gears give point of touch so it's accurate with its club and path measurements. Its makes calculations tracking the club.

I don't understand why he believes they think heel shot produce a slice. It's been known for a long time you also produce a hook too. Same with the toe not always guaranteed a draw or hook either.
Some of the information maybe valid back then. Although in 5 years technology has evolved a long way.
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#3 Itchy4Scratch

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:33 AM

With a square face angle at impact and a neutral swing path, a heel strike with a driver will produce a slice due to gear effect won't it?

Obviously inconsistencies in face angle and swing path may exaggerate or mitigate this in the resulting ball flight, but the theory is sound for a completely neutral swing as far as I can see.

#4 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:55 AM

Old outdated information,
 

...

 

How did I know that you'd be along to say that his high speed photography doesn't actually show what it shows and that your whizzo gears system has revealed everything.

 

Just pick one of his numerous videos, tell us what it shows and why his analysis of that video is wrong.

 

Put up or shut up.


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#5 Old Poppy

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:07 PM

M understanding s that gear effect only applies where the actual COG of the club head is located some distance from the clubface. The further away the greater the potential gear effect.

What happens with irons where he COG is on the clubface? The clubface twists in he direction the strike occurred relative to the COG. If it is above the COG the face lays back, under the face rolls over, towards he heel the face turns in, towards the toe the face turns out. Then there are combinations the above.

Some modern iron designs with hot faces have he COG back from he clubface which brings he gear effect into play.

Edited by Old Poppy, 12 February 2019 - 12:11 PM.

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#6 Zenstb

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:09 PM

Simple how can he make assumptions of where the COG of the driver head is. He has no idea where it is.

Unless you have COG machine to test that actually driver head ,you have no idea the COG is, everyclub is slightly different.

In addition the further the COG is back, the higher up the face is the sweet spot. If the COG is as low as he suggest and so far back. Has no real effect on Collision.

Edited by Zenstb, 12 February 2019 - 12:15 PM.

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#7 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:11 PM

With a square face angle at impact and a neutral swing path, a heel strike with a driver will produce a slice due to gear effect won't it?

Obviously inconsistencies in face angle and swing path may exaggerate or mitigate this in the resulting ball flight, but the theory is sound for a completely neutral swing as far as I can see.

 

He seems to be making a couple of points. In broad terms what I took from his article was...

 

First is that the rule that almost all (85%) of the initial direction of the ball flight isn't nearly as reliable for modern drivers as people might think. As I understand his analysis this is because the centre of mass is further from the face. I suspect that the rule is more reliable for irons than for woods but he doesn't really deal with that point.

 

Second is that the differences in the way the ball deforms on impact suggests there is another neglected factor. In particular when the ball is struck off centre the club will change its path enough to cause the ball to have a path slightly the other way.

 

As I understand the gear effect it neatly explains heely cuts and toey draws.

 

Oh, and the high speed videos of impact were fascinating. Just watching the balls deform was great. I'm sure that the manufacturers are very much on top of this sort of thing.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 12 February 2019 - 12:18 PM.

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#8 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:14 PM

Simple how can he make assumptions of where the COG of the driver head is. He has no idea where it is.

Unless you have COG machine to test that actually driver head ,you have no idea the COG is, everyclub is slightly different.

 

Geez Zen you just keep digging that hole for yourself.

 

I say again. Pick one of the impact videos. Tell us what you see and why his analysis is wrong.

 

Put up or shut up.


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#9 Zenstb

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:25 PM

Geez Zen you just keep digging that hole for yourself.

I say again. Pick one of the impact videos. Tell us what you see and why his analysis is wrong.

Put up or shut up.


No need champ, he doesn't know where the COG is end of story., 2D is not measuring the speed direction the club is travel. There is speed x along the target, speed Y, downward and upward speed. Speed Z inside to out or out side to in. Can't measure Face angle, can't measure angle of attack, spin loft. This all needs to be calculated. Also not measuring rate of closure, shaft twist etc.
All these variables need to be measured and factored in.
He's going to validate his story. Same swing, same golfer and use a trackman or foresight. Then compare. Other wise not valid.
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#10 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:27 PM

No need champ, he doesn't know where the COG is end of story., 2D is not measuring the speed direction the club is travel. There is speed x along the target, speed Y, downward and upward speed. Speed Z inside to out or out side to in. Can't measure Face angle, can't measure angle of attack, spin loft. This all needs to be calculated. Also not measuring rate of closure, shaft twist etc.
All these variables need to be measured and factored in.
He's going to validate his story. Same swing, same golfer and use a trackman or foresight. Then compare. Other wise not valid.

 

Once again your stubborn ignorance reveals itself. And then you resort to blathering on in almost comical irrelevance.

 

Put up or shut up.


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#11 Zenstb

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:38 PM

Once again your stubborn ignorance reveals itself. And then you resort to blathering on in almost comical irrelevance.

Put up or shut up.


πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚, what ever champ.
There is a guy trying to debunk scientists using 2D from face on.πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚. These scientists used 3d technologies, phantom cameras. Radar.
They calculated all the above. Mentioned before.
He doesn't even know where the COG is , end of story you don't know where it is how can you make accurate analysis.
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#12 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:43 PM

, what ever champ.
There is a guy trying to debunk scientists using 2D from face on.. These scientists used 3d technologies, phantom cameras. Radar.
They calculated all the above. Mentioned before.
He doesn't even know where the COG is , end of story you don't know where it is how can you make accurate analysis.

 

Tell us which of the impact videos you are referring to and why what you say affects his analysis.

 

I'll be so bold as to say you are incapable of doing so. I'll go further and say that you have not even looked at the high speed videos in his article. Nor did you notice that he looks at data collected by Foresight HMT.

 

Put up or shut up.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 12 February 2019 - 12:49 PM.

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#13 Zenstb

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:52 PM

Tell us which of the impact videos you are referring to and why what you say affects his analysis.

I'll be so bold as to say you are incapable of doing so. I'll go further and say that you have not even looked at the high speed videos in his article.

Put up or shut up.

πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚.
If you read my post, I wrote longdriver. Big clue there. Only way to know that was watch the high speed videos.
He created the COG on the club.Where he believed it was. Took a stab in the dark with a guess of where it would be.
Using 2D he can't draw the COG in the true location. Like in the centre of the club head somewhere. Not towards the back of the driver and on the toe side.
Unless you know where the COG is no one can make an accurate analysis.

Edited by Zenstb, 12 February 2019 - 12:53 PM.

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#14 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:54 PM

.
If you read my post, I wrote longdriver. Big clue there. Only way to know that was watch the high speed videos.
He created the COG on the club.Where he believed it was. Took a stab in the dark with a guess of where it would be.
Being he can't draw the COG in the true location. Like in the centre of the club head somewhere. Not on towards the back of the driver and toe.
Unless you know where the COG is no one can make an accurate analysis.

 

You just keep digging Zen.

 

I say again, pick one of the high speed videos, tell us what you see and how any of your claims affect his analysis.

 

Put up or shut up.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 12 February 2019 - 01:01 PM.

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#15 KEG

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 05:20 PM

M understanding s that gear effect only applies where the actual COG of the club head is located some distance from the clubface. The further away the greater the potential gear effect.

What happens with irons where he COG is on the clubface? The clubface twists in he direction the strike occurred relative to the COG. If it is above the COG the face lays back, under the face rolls over, towards he heel the face turns in, towards the toe the face turns out. Then there are combinations the above.

Some modern iron designs with hot faces have he COG back from he clubface which brings he gear effect into play.

Crossfield did a video on COG and the very small difference between drivers where the COG is "back" or "forward"  eg M5 or M6


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