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How To Square Up Clubface?


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#31 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:28 PM

Got it - found the bit in the video. Not sure why the idea that the right arm straightening creates lag is controversial. Lag is a wrist angle. I'd imagine the action of the upper arm moving down and into the side could increase the wrist angle. I can also see how maintaining good structure helps create and hold lag vs poor structure making your body throw the lag away earlier as your pivot stalls.

In the Tiger video from the front I can easily see that he is straightening his right arm from transition - it's very obvious when I look for it. And it makes total sense - the right elbow doesn't bend more after transition - it starts reversing the action it took in the backswing which is bending surely?

Can't tell in the DJ DTL video obviously. Good look at how his right arm pulls down and in though.

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#32 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:34 PM

The right hip is interesting. I think that's referring to this idea you used to hear a lot about the right elbow passing in front of the right hip.

DJs video is great at showing that his elbow moves around him with his right hip. They move together. It's pretty astounding to watch - the man is an athlete.

It's something that all of the big hitters seem to have - the right elbow comes into the side and everything turns together through impact.

The right elbow doesn't pass in front of the right hip though. Looks like it front on but the DTL you posted shows that that hip is clearing as fast as ths right elbow is coming through.
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Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands, 15/4/18 16th Carbrook
Goal: A round at par or better!
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​Winner: 2018 Nationals day 2 round at Kooralbyn

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#33 Old Poppy

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:35 PM

What about the nonsense that right lateral bend hinders rotation? I am certain the animation included that gem. Check out the right lateral bend DJ creates in the transition and locks in well into the follow through.
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#34 Old Poppy

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:48 PM

The right hip is interesting. I think that's referring to this idea you used to hear a lot about the right elbow passing in front of the right hip.
DJs video is great at showing that his elbow moves around him with his right hip. They move together. It's pretty astounding to watch - the man is an athlete.
It's something that all of the big hitters seem to have - the right elbow comes into the side and everything turns together through impact.
The right elbow doesn't pass in front of the right hip though. Looks like it front on but the DTL you posted shows that that hip is clearing as fast as ths right elbow is coming through.

Actually the right elbow stays inside the right hip or close to it. It moves away from the body as the arms lift but it still keeps that relationship with the turned ribcage. The key to his is the first move in the takeaway - he pushes the right elbow towards the left elbow and keeps them together throughout the swing. It is as if both arms form a super arm.

#35 golfguy33

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:01 PM

I'll certainly agree that my tendency is for the hips to stall and the arms to catch up in general.

 

Here's a few screen grabs from behind and hitting a ball. 

This was done before that sequence above. But same problems exist. Not enough hip rotation on downswing. Too much lateral shift. Impacting on lag and clubface orientation. Having to save with hands. I think average distance with 7 iron is around 160mtrs which I'll take. Not a young fella anymore. 

Need to figure out a thought / feeling to get the hips working better. 

From photo 6 to 10 your right knee has moved very minimally. It is the stalling section of your swing and seems to stop your lower half rotation, mid downswing. 

Because of the lack of leg rotation you have nowhere to go thru impact but narrow and up after impact.

This doesn't allow any room to move the club out and down the target line, which is the part you are trying to create via the move re lag. Getting your right elbow tight and under is always a move that follows the firing of the bottom half via your leg action. 

The modern swing is now about, how fast can the player move their legs and hips, which in turn creates the lag position of the hands and generates enormous clubhead speed. 

To get the sequence in sync it has to start from the ground up via solid balance. Then by getting the lower body and legs to start you down the swing should fire thru impact and allow the room to release and get the timing to square the clubface, simples :)

 

Jon...  


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#36 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:03 PM

Early straightening the right elbow is the classic way to throw away lag mid downswing which is where this all started. 333 received advice to move his elbow to his side. Zen contradicted that and wanted him to straighten his elbow instead.
 
I don't see any significant straightening of Tiger's right elbow early in the downswing. You don't want it bending more but some players do. The transition is not a simple reversal. In particular the start of the downswing is a further loading of the right shoulder.
 
The things about DJ's DTL are firstly how late his right elbow remains bent to a right angle and how close his elbow gets to his side. Both of those contradict Zen's statements.


As I noted earlier there is no either or for right elbow down and straightening, so both right for mine.

No significant straightening early - it would be physically impossible given the left arm can't stretch. But steady and continuous from transition - I definitely see that in Tiger's video.

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#37 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:07 PM

Agreed but there is a fine point to be made. That is the right forearm following the right elbow rather than leading it. That's why I think the AMG video looks wrong.
 
I'm not sure about what you say about the right elbow passing the right hip. It depends on your frame of reference (face on or relative to the hips as they turn) and whether you are talking about the loading or the releasing. When DJ's right elbow finally does straighten in a significant way it is when he is releasing the club into impact. I'd say the elbow passes his right hip then although he turns so strongly it might be a close run thing.
 
Interestingly your observation about the right elbow and hip moving together is something Kelvin Miyahira talks about.


Obviously the right elbow end up going way past the right hip. What I understood Zen to be referring was a common teaching that the right elbow moved in front of the right hip by around P6. DJ from front on would be a poster child for that but the DTL video shows it's not true.

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#38 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:08 PM

Actually the right elbow stays inside the right hip or close to it. It moves away from the body as the arms lift but it still keeps that relationship with the turned ribcage. The key to his is the first move in the takeaway - he pushes the right elbow towards the left elbow and keeps them together throughout the swing. It is as if both arms form a super arm.


To me DJ illustrates that look like no other

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#39 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:21 PM

Depends how much elbow straightening is considered significant

I remember a lot of instruction a few years back said the top players hold that right elbow 90 as long as they can but 3D has disproven it

Another thing that has disproven it convincingly for me is Monte Scheinblum's videos. He is a world long drive champion and is very strong that the good players are releasing right from transiton - straightening the right arm and also throwing the clubhead with their wrists. It doesn't look like it because it takes the whole downswing for the forces to show up in a straightened released club, but they start very early.

It's about what the body is doing vs the effect you can see I suppose. Malaska move is an example of intention early leads to results at the right time.

Of course I have no idea whether the right arm sttaightens because the left arm pulls across the chest and because the two hands are connected the right arm has to straighten, or that the players are trying to straighten it. I know that some coaches, as they've learned more from scientific and 3D analysis have talked about the feeling of drawing an arrow from a quiver across your shoulders. Which suggests active straightening. But again they are measuring forces and actions, not necessarily signals the brain is sending to contract a muscle. So who knows?

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Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
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#40 Weetbix

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:30 PM

I don't know what you are seeing in the DTL video that makes you say that.
 
As for what Zen is referring to he was miles away from any consideration of the right elbow moving anywhere near the right hip.


In the DTL DJ video I see the right elbow and hip moving around together not the elbow overtaking the hip. Well not until well past impact anyway.

On the other topic if I try and straighten my right arm from transition the right elbow goes down into the right side of the ribcage. The two actions work together.

I've never seen a top golfer whose right upper arm doesn't tuck into their side in the downswing, so I doubt Zen is suggesting that that doesn't happen. My reading was that the intention to drag it down and in as the primary feel leads to incorrect right arm motion (it doesn't straighten until too late), and also too much lateral bending.

I'm witg Old Poppy that I know there is right lateral bend in a good swing so I interpreted Zen as meaning bend too early. But that wasn't clear to me in the video.

I watch all the AMG videos and firmly believe the right arm straightens from transition. But why it does I am not sure. I suspect aggressively contracting the tricep from transition is not necessarily what the pros are doing.

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Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands, 15/4/18 16th Carbrook
Goal: A round at par or better!
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#41 Old Poppy

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 06:52 AM

In the DTL DJ video I see the right elbow and hip moving around together not the elbow overtaking the hip. Well not until well past impact anyway.
On the other topic if I try and straighten my right arm from transition the right elbow goes down into the right side of the ribcage. The two actions work together.
I've never seen a top golfer whose right upper arm doesn't tuck into their side in the downswing, so I doubt Zen is suggesting that that doesn't happen. My reading was that the intention to drag it down and in as the primary feel leads to incorrect right arm motion (it doesn't straighten until too late), and also too much lateral bending.
I'm witg Old Poppy that I know there is right lateral bend in a good swing so I interpreted Zen as meaning bend too early. But that wasn't clear to me in the video.
I watch all the AMG videos and firmly believe the right arm straightens from transition. But why it does I am not sure. I suspect aggressively contracting the tricep from transition is not necessarily what the pros are doing.

Weeti I understand what you are saying. I struggled with the right elbow and right shoulder external rotation for a long time. It is not an easy thing to do in a golf swing for a natural right handed. I eventually got it right when I mastered right lateral bend during the transition and locking it in. They both go together.
Hogan's "Five Lessons..." described the correct motion of the right arm and hand. It is exactly what Tiger, DJ, Champion, Rory etc. own in their swings.
"It has always seemed to me that, in its general character, this motion is quite similar to the one an infielder makes when he throws half underhand, half sidearm to first after scooping up a ground ball. As he swings his arm forward his right elbow is very close to his right hip. The elbow leads the arm - it is part of the arm nearest the target as he begins to make the throw. The forearm and hand catch up with the elbow, and the player's arm is extended relatively straight when he releases the ball. As he follows through, the wrist and hand gradually turn over, and the palm faces the ground at the finish of his follow-through."

Edited by Old Poppy, 13 February 2019 - 06:54 AM.


#42 Weetbix

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 09:17 AM

Weeti I understand what you are saying. I struggled with the right elbow and right shoulder external rotation for a long time. It is not an easy thing to do in a golf swing for a natural right handed. I eventually got it right when I mastered right lateral bend during the transition and locking it in. They both go together.
Hogan's "Five Lessons..." described the correct motion of the right arm and hand. It is exactly what Tiger, DJ, Champion, Rory etc. own in their swings.
"It has always seemed to me that, in its general character, this motion is quite similar to the one an infielder makes when he throws half underhand, half sidearm to first after scooping up a ground ball. As he swings his arm forward his right elbow is very close to his right hip. The elbow leads the arm - it is part of the arm nearest the target as he begins to make the throw. The forearm and hand catch up with the elbow, and the player's arm is extended relatively straight when he releases the ball. As he follows through, the wrist and hand gradually turn over, and the palm faces the ground at the finish of his follow-through."


Yeah that's the action OP

The old skipping the stone phrase

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Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
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#43 Old Poppy

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 09:44 AM

Yeah that's the action OP
The old skipping the stone phrase

I really don't know why it took me so long to get this. Our two sons were Australian reps in baseball - one was a catcher and the other second base/ short stop. The second played professional ball in America. He actually spend time with the Australian Cricket team teaching the fundamentals of throwing a ball. Unbelievable that our national cricket players were never taught how to throw a ball correctly.
Cam Smith's dad was a very good baseball player and transferred those skills over to golf. He played off scratch and taught Cam from a very early age.
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#44 Weetbix

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 10:33 AM

In the first part of the down swing straighening the trail elbow (an extensor action) works against bringing the right elbow down near the body and vice versa. Try it and tell me if you still disagree.


I was trying it as I typed last night

Pushing the hands away from the head with the right tricep for me does bring the elbow into the side as the left arm gets pushed down. So it works for me.

I think of it like swinging an axe at the base of a tree - you don't hold the arms back and rotate. You swing the axe with the arms and the body rotates - it rotates first because it's job is to get the hands into position to throw that axe.

Jack Nichlaus said that he releases the club right from the start of the downswing - as soon as his left foot planted he was throwing that club hard. He wasn't pulling his arms into his body - they just went in as his body and arms supported that release.

For me the biggest difference between a hacker like me and someone like DJ is I do not have anything resembling his athleticism and coordination. I cannot get the sort of body rotation he gets so my swing will never have that look of the arms and club coming along with the rotating body that he has. But I bet that physiologically he is just swinging that club with all his might and because of how physically gifted he is his body carries that club around so fast it looks like his swing is just rotation. But I'd bet that his arms are working hard and his hands are releasing hard just like mine do, but my body can't deliver those things like his does. And my timing is worse so I'm throwing away speed early whereas he is delivering it perfectly.

I'm gunna trust the scientists who developed GEARS know what they are doing. Not suggesting they have all the answers - the 3d kinetic link was true but was hugely overstated in how much it would improve your golf. And as we agree GEARS doesn't know how the golfers body is creating the effects it measures.

But I can see how the right arm is straightening on Tiger and DJ on the slow no so I don't have any issues believing the 3D stats. And I can see why that creates good lag you can use as opposed to crunching the right arm into the side and getting narrow and stuck would create bad lag. It's not about how physiologically the lag gets created - it's about how long the body can wait before throwing it away.

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Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands, 15/4/18 16th Carbrook
Goal: A round at par or better!
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#45 Weetbix

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 11:58 AM

Given the name of the thread and the original question from the originator was about squaring the clubface - and Zen's video was about helping the originator with that - I'm confused about the focus on creating holding and releasing lag. I was talking about how to swing a good club.

But I have no idea why straightening the right arm in some way defines what happens with lag anyway. Certainly grabbing a club and swinging it back and then pushing my hands away from my head via tricep action doesn't seem to affect my wrist angles too much one way or the other.

But I enjoyed thinking about it so nice talking to you too.

Handicap
Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands, 15/4/18 16th Carbrook
Goal: A round at par or better!
Brisbane Fairways 2015 Club Champion

2018 Nationals 4BBB Champion with Commish
Winner: 2015 Nationals day 5 round at Links Hope Island
Winner: 2016 Nationals day 5 round at Woodlands
Winner: 2017 Nationals day 5 round at Bonnie Doon

​Winner: 2018 Nationals day 2 round at Kooralbyn

​Winner: 2018 Nationals day 3 round at Sanctuary Cove Pines
South East Queensland Golf Group - Treasurer
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