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How To Square Up Clubface?


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#151 Old Poppy

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 11:08 AM

Oh geez. Now OP is stroppy. Next we'll have Zen chiming in with his stick figures.
 
I do not recall using the phrase "lag based swing".

Haha.. lag based release then.

#152 Old Poppy

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 11:30 AM

Haha..Over here...I'm not dead yet. Nah...all good. Don't mind others opining without me being directly involved. [/size]

I think my iron club speed is reasonably high for someone turning 60 next year. Although Driver speed has never been measured much higher than 100mph which seems pretty slow. Perhaps it's faster on some more recent drives which have been in the 260-280mtr region? Am definitely getting a lower trajectory of late...with all clubs.

I do understand that introducing more lag means potential issues in getting the club back to square at impact based on my rotation. However I wonder if more lag were achieved then the club picks up speed somewhat exponentially as it closes into impact and therefore it might achieve a similar 'squareness' but via a different acceleration chart? I also think that my rotation vs sliding has improved which is down to a more centeredness during backswing. As an aside, I've never heard anyone actually advocating not lagging before. It does makes sense to a degree and based on the fact that I can sometimes hit the ball quite straight and far with the current dynamics. Still, I know when I have a bit more lag, and as FG suggests, trying to use a shorter pitch type shot as the feeling might induce more lag. It would be interesting to see where the ball goes with more lag. Block right/flip left I assume OP would expect.

Most golfers concept about lag is the up and down action of the wrists which aligns the shaft and the left forearm during the backswing. This alignment is carried into the downswing during the transition and may even reduce in angle with the clubface open 90 degrees or more to the swing plane. (Those players who have some sideways wrist bend during the backswing have the clubface less than 90* open to the swing plane during transition).
In order to square up the clubface in the split second to impact the wrist bend needs to be converted from up and down bend to side bend for the golfers who have a strong and neutral to weak grip. The exception is the player with an extreme strong grip.
This corkscrew action of he wrists is assisted by the club head swinging out from behind the hands past transition as the hands get down past waist height.
The downswing takes a fraction of a second so it's not possible to consciously control it.

As for the shorter shots lag should not be an issue because the wrist break should be mostly sideways.

Edited by Old Poppy, 14 March 2019 - 11:42 AM.


#153 BROWNMAN

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 12:02 PM

1. Because that is where this thread started; and

2. As I said "That might give you a taste of a lag based release and help you decide whether that is where you want to put your efforts."

FG......hope you dont mind if i chime in here....in No 2....are you talking of a snap release?..cheers


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#154 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 12:20 PM

FG......hope you dont mind if i chime in here....in No 2....are you talking of a snap release?..cheers

 

 

You're always welcome to chime in.

 

What I had in mind was nothing more technical than what I described. Namely a "taste test" of a very short backswing with a downswing check point where the hands are in front of the trail leg when the shaft reaches horizontal on the down swing (or vice versa).

 

Now there are all sorts of questions like the club face angle at the check point, where the shaft is aligned looking down the swing at the check point, how to move the body, arms and wrists to get to the check point, when lag should be generated, held and released.  The list goes on forever.

 

Far be it from me to prescribe such detail. Heck, 333 may well want to go in a completely different direction.


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#155 333pg333

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 02:00 PM

Well my chipping technique is likely to have more lag as I really focus on a very light grip pressure and quite a bit of wrist hinge. It's very much a matter of trust and  commitment when executing this style of chip. Another thought is to think of left buttock moving backwards away from the target. To be clear, I have used this type of swing pattern in the past with varying degrees of success. But might try an experiment and film some of these swings just to see what happens. To extrapolate even further. Putting. When I look at the ball I tend to be a bit too stiff and don't get a great roll on the ball. I used to analyse my putting stroke as it was occurring. (Don't suggest doing this). This spiralled into some pretty obvious paralysis. About 15 years ago I came across a drill which was just to look at the target, not the ball. It was designed to get a feel of the pace of greens before a round. I found my putting suddenly became a lot better and pretty much adopted that style to this day. Occasionally go back to looking at ball. Predated J. Speith by many years btw! Anyway, point of this story is that by looking at the target my swing is a lot more relaxed and there is a little bit of lag in my putting stroke. So I think a little loose / no tension based swing pattern is always better than having any stiffness or flexion at least at address. I think with my fast hand speed I can sometimes get a bit Robotic just to get that hand/arm speed up. Not deliberately but it creeps in. Then a little light bulb will go off and I'll remember not to forget keep it loose - loose - loose! 


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#156 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 06:34 PM

$43M in tour earnings and counting ... oh yeah, the boy can play!

 


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#157 BROWNMAN

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 08:41 AM

Well my chipping technique is likely to have more lag as I really focus on a very light grip pressure and quite a bit of wrist hinge. It's very much a matter of trust and  commitment when executing this style of chip. Another thought is to think of left buttock moving backwards away from the target. To be clear, I have used this type of swing pattern in the past with varying degrees of success. But might try an experiment and film some of these swings just to see what happens. To extrapolate even further. Putting. When I look at the ball I tend to be a bit too stiff and don't get a great roll on the ball. I used to analyse my putting stroke as it was occurring. (Don't suggest doing this). This spiralled into some pretty obvious paralysis. About 15 years ago I came across a drill which was just to look at the target, not the ball. It was designed to get a feel of the pace of greens before a round. I found my putting suddenly became a lot better and pretty much adopted that style to this day. Occasionally go back to looking at ball. Predated J. Speith by many years btw! Anyway, point of this story is that by looking at the target my swing is a lot more relaxed and there is a little bit of lag in my putting stroke. So I think a little loose / no tension based swing pattern is always better than having any stiffness or flexion at least at address. I think with my fast hand speed I can sometimes get a bit Robotic just to get that hand/arm speed up. Not deliberately but it creeps in. Then a little light bulb will go off and I'll remember not to forget keep it loose - loose - loose! 

333pg333  how do you get the club to release for such a small swing,for instance you have to get over small bunker just in front of you?..any hands at all,i seem to have to do this shot a lot


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#158 333pg333

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 11:24 AM

333pg333  how do you get the club to release for such a small swing,for instance you have to get over small bunker just in front of you?..any hands at all,i seem to have to do this shot a lot

Stricker was a hell of a good player. I also think he was a little lucky that he struck his hot patch in a period prior to some of today's greats (DJ, Speith, Rory et al) establishing themselves and Tiger being on his wane period. I also think of DeChambeau as being someone successful who plays without a ton of lag. Being tall, athletic, strong really helps. Perhaps his swing isn't one for the smaller or weaker player? Good example of someone who gets a lot of his power through rotation. 

 
For me those short chip shots are all about commitment. Of course you have to get the club and ball to meet at near bottom of arc. I've found some coaches nowadays always seem to quote "use the bounce". I find this can be a little confusing and sometimes think they don't quite know what they're talking about, but they actually suggest almost flipping or pre releasing the hands before impact. I have tried this method and it takes a good lie and steely nerves. The fear of blading it over the green is real. However when you can pull it off and trust your swing, it can work well. The other thing they all seem to say is pick a spot on the green that you want the ball to land before rolling out. I always struggle with this concept and rely upon feel. I'd say the best exponents of short game would be very good at visualising where they land the ball and pulling that shot off. There are some other little things I do for a short chip. If I need to get extra height I also play it closer to the body and clubshaft more vertical. Some lower chips you can experiment with the method of extra vertical shaft and play it off the toe. So you reduce the amount of surface area or contact point of the club and the grass. It can minimise possible flubbed chips. Grip..strong or weak can alter trajectory. Ball position obviously. Practice is the best cure for chipping blues in my opinion. Hence I've just joined a new club which has some decent practice facilities. It's a massive boon joining Bonnie Doon. Finishing with a rhyme...mic drop...lol. 


#159 BROWNMAN

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 12:21 PM

 

Stricker was a hell of a good player. I also think he was a little lucky that he struck his hot patch in a period prior to some of today's greats (DJ, Speith, Rory et al) establishing themselves and Tiger being on his wane period. I also think of DeChambeau as being someone successful who plays without a ton of lag. Being tall, athletic, strong really helps. Perhaps his swing isn't one for the smaller or weaker player? Good example of someone who gets a lot of his power through rotation. 

 
For me those short chip shots are all about commitment. Of course you have to get the club and ball to meet at near bottom of arc. I've found some coaches nowadays always seem to quote "use the bounce". I find this can be a little confusing and sometimes think they don't quite know what they're talking about, but they actually suggest almost flipping or pre releasing the hands before impact. I have tried this method and it takes a good lie and steely nerves. The fear of blading it over the green is real. However when you can pull it off and trust your swing, it can work well. The other thing they all seem to say is pick a spot on the green that you want the ball to land before rolling out. I always struggle with this concept and rely upon feel. I'd say the best exponents of short game would be very good at visualising where they land the ball and pulling that shot off. There are some other little things I do for a short chip. If I need to get extra height I also play it closer to the body and clubshaft more vertical. Some lower chips you can experiment with the method of extra vertical shaft and play it off the toe. So you reduce the amount of surface area or contact point of the club and the grass. It can minimise possible flubbed chips. Grip..strong or weak can alter trajectory. Ball position obviously. Practice is the best cure for chipping blues in my opinion. Hence I've just joined a new club which has some decent practice facilities. It's a massive boon joining Bonnie Doon. Finishing with a rhyme...mic drop...lol. 

 

best comment on this so far imo...commitment...love it,and its the root cause of most poor chips imo,for me,i absolutely use lasr 3 fingers on left hand (righty)and unload to bottom of swing  down the plane of the swing,sometimes to ensure "commitment" i may give it a bit of right elbow into shot insuring i take it all the way down,thats maybe using bounce?


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#160 333pg333

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Posted 15 March 2019 - 09:49 PM

Yes, seriously. Even when I think I'm committed (or should be) I find that my actual swing into the ball (as compared to loose practice swings) is not what I intended. So it's the brain and fear getting in the way. A ton of this game is played between the ears as we have all heard ad infinitum. However we tend to gloss over this all too readily or forget about it. I often think about how I feel half way through a round or even after a round I'll go to the nets just to hammer home something. The feeling of looseness and ability to play without those early game nerves or physical restrictions is real. I try to repeat that feeling in the round. It's not easy. 


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#161 Zenstb

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Posted 16 March 2019 - 08:40 AM


Been working on getting a little more shoulder tilt on backswing. May not look like a lot more but it feels quite a bit more steeper than a few months back.

Combining this with what feels like more of a shut clubface on way back which is probably more or less square to spine.

Noticing that the lifting up-ness of body is lessening. Have also been standing a little more erect at address as per GG.

Bum tucked under and less of that Adam Scott athletic arse out super straight back feeling that I was actually trying to achieve earlier.

The downswing thoughts have been retaining wrist angles and trying to rotate earlier and more. As many have said, it takes time to drill major changes into the swing naturally.

Also there will be a limit to what positions I can achieve due to lack of flexibility and back/neck issues. Have to say that all this extra golf is making things worse with my problems. But you play through it, probably to later detriment. Some days the early back foot lift is still there. Somedays not so much. Another thing I try to think of prior to swinging club back.


Impact is definitely getting better. Ball going further. Getting 56o out close to 100mtrs which was unheard of even fairly recently. Some swings the lag feels better than others so that's clearly still a problem too.


Hopefully these videos load now. Having computer issues. 2nd vid shows an abbreviated follow through from a little bit behind down the line.

Was hitting some Yellow range balls over 170mtrs with 6 iron. One over 180mtrs. Lite wind behind.




https://www.youtube....h?v=Xm9GdftxxwA
https://www.youtube....h?v=OdUel1CS2x8


Stick to the plan.
Keep on working on your tilts and fine tuning the rotation.
Learn to rotate so everything matches up.
Turn smooth and ensure you turn first.
The hands are slotting perfectly on the downswing now.
Stick to the plan, keep on doing what you are doing.
As the tilts and rotation improves everything else will improve.
For now the lag is matching your pattern.
This will change and match up as the tilts and rotation improves.
Keep up the great work.
Coordination is the key to movement

#162 333pg333

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:40 AM

Yep, shall do. Not sure how much more tilt I can get anatomically speaking. It feels much steeper than even the start of this thread. 

Can't seem to get that left knee kicking out and around start to the downswing though. I think I might have too much pressure on the left side at the top of my backswing. 

So trying to initiate transition by the GG type left knee move (which was really Hogan and Snead but not quite as ungainly as GG) something doesn't work.

Probably need to get some video of that to see what/why that is. 



#163 Zenstb

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Posted 18 March 2019 - 06:43 AM

Yep, shall do. Not sure how much more tilt I can get anatomically speaking. It feels much steeper than even the start of this thread.
Can't seem to get that left knee kicking out and around start to the downswing though. I think I might have too much pressure on the left side at the top of my backswing.
So trying to initiate transition by the GG type left knee move (which was really Hogan and Snead but not quite as ungainly as GG) something doesn't work.
Probably need to get some video of that to see what/why that is.

Tilts are looking good. Ingrain the current tilts. They are working well as you are now slotting the club perfectly on the way down.
Looking good mate.

Edited by Zenstb, 18 March 2019 - 06:44 AM.

Coordination is the key to movement




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