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Space, Time And Zach Johnson


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#1 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:55 PM

I have started a new thread because there is good stuff going on in my Hardy and Without Athletic Ability threads, but those threads are now discussing more advanced topics than my golf game is able to use.

This is a summarising piece, from my point of view, so if I could be allowed to do a few posts just to outline what is now coming clear to me, that would be great.
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#2 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:08 PM

Space and time are the ideas that I got from one of the contributions from 333 in another thread.

I want to tie that in to the ideas of Compensation Moves, an Uncompensated Swing and Instinctive Hand Eye coordination.

I have long held the view that our golf swings are more instinctive than we might think. It is our instinctive hand eye coordination that comes up with the compensation moves that get the club onto the ball despite the horrors of our swing.

The "ah ha" moment I have had, and maybe everyone else will regard this as obvious, is that we need compensation moves if we find ourselves on the downswing with insufficient Time or Space to hit the ball with the originally intended nice uncompensated hit and release action.

To get to Uncompensated, imo, the keys are to create and maintain Time and Space. not just the bare minimum, because we have shot to shot variation and we don't want to be on the hairy edge of compensating. Ample, plenty, however you care to describe it, we want a bit more than just enough.

Then we need a simple hit and release pattern and the simplest, again imo, is Zach. Why? Because he does not twist the shaft through impact and his action, by using the left arm as the plane arm, he maintains Space on the downswing and does not need the complex transitonal plane shift of a classic RIT.
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#3 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:16 PM

Time.

We can pause on the backswing forever if we want to, that is not what I mean by time.

Bradley Hughes highlighted this in 333's recent post, Pete Croker refers to this. Essentially, once the pivot starts, the club is moving. If we only pivoted, we would swing the club past and above the ball, missing it completely by some distance.

I like Croker's term "chasing" to describe the pivot starting and the arms trying to desperately catch up and hit the ball. Bradley talks about arms first, pivot later. TGM talks about Hands Comtrolled Pivot.

Contrast this with advice for the more athletically gifted which might say "start with the hips".

Stay turned, start with the hands / arms, give yourself Time to hit the ball.
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#4 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:23 PM

Space.

Bradley Hughes is very clear about this. Your setup affects how much space you start with.

Your transition can rob you of space if you move your hands down into the "stuck" position.

You can also create space problems by moving the hips forward, and I also think you can create Space problems by over rotating the shoulders on the backswing, past the natural angle of approach.

Create space in the setup. Then keep the space by not over rotating the shoulders or dragging the club back to the inside, then maintain the space by how you move the hips.

#5 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:27 PM

Learning without compensating.

You can study Zach or Tiger or whoever and hit a million balls on the range, but if with every shot you are actually compensating, you are just grooving those compensation moves.

With plenty of space and time, the need for compensations is eliminated, now you are free to get better at hit and release. Now each ball is an opportunity to improve.
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#6 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:31 PM

That's it.

It is now crystal clear in my mind, even if these posts are doing a poor job of communicating that clarity.

Thanks to 333, OP, Zen and others who have posted such useful stuff on the other threads.

From here on, I will be using Space and Time as my keys and, as long as I have those, trying to emulate Zach's hitting action.

Open for comments.
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#7 Zenstb

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:23 PM

Space.
Bradley Hughes is very clear about this. Your setup affects how much space you start with.
Your transition can rob you of space if you move your hands down into the "stuck" position.
You can also create space problems by moving the hips forward, and I also think you can create Space problems by over rotating the shoulders on the backswing, past the natural angle of approach.
Create space in the setup. Then keep the space by not over rotating the shoulders or dragging the club back to the inside, then maintain the space by how you move the hips.

Maybe this is some food for thought.
On 3D we see tour players arms and hand path move down.
There is a blend of three components for the downswing.
Theses guys I respect who use the same 3D system and feel they explain the components quite well.
During the week I'll post up a 3D animation average of 40 tour players hand path combined. The hands work down.
https://youtu.be/-76bMOcwCdc

This links to a video the myth of sway.
Tour players sway 4 inches on the downswing.
https://m.facebook.c...7&ref=bookmarks

Edited by Zenstb, 19 January 2019 - 10:29 PM.

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Coordination is the key to movement

#8 Old Poppy

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 11:31 PM

Devon, I can only speak to my experiences about learning a new swing. I decided to understand the tour players swing about a decade ago. It became a hobby.Kelvin's articles was a big help in my understanding how the body needs to work, but one doesn't really fully understand something until they can actually do it physically and interlectually. We play the game by feel, we feel an action and we get a certain result. Feel is an incredibly difficult subject to articulate because we are all different. We all have different movement patterns. We interpret differently in favour of the feelings of our own movement patterns.
To change our movement patterns is quite a lengthy process. It can be a gamble if one is trying to improve their golf swing and could end up with a worse swing. A safer course is to learn how to do our best swing 90% of the time instead of 50% - 60% of the time.
The tour players are making adjustments to their swings every day. A slight exaggerated movement or short changing a movement can result in a poor shot, regardless of world ranking.
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#9 Devongolfer

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 03:35 AM

Zen, many thanks.

I have have adopted the hip slide already, I get that. I see in the first video echoes of your alpha, beta, gamma.

OP. You make good points, but there is one that does not apply to me, which is the risk of getting worse. Trust me, I really am coming at this from the chopper end of the spectrum.

I too have been going at this for about 10 years, and I too view this as far more of a hobby and interest than as a desperate need to reduce handicap or hit the ball further.

Right now, and this can change, I am working my way towards "as simple as possible, as uncompensated as possible". If I get there, maybe I will then try to build back in something more advanced, whilst trying to avoid lots of compensations.

I can feel when I am compensating, which is a big help. I feel rushed, the downswing is a blur, the finish is off balance.

Anyway, I am talking a good game but tomorrow will be my first round with just Space, Time and Zach in my head.

I will report back.
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#10 BROWNMAN

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 07:39 AM

Zen, many thanks.

I have have adopted the hip slide already, I get that. I see in the first video echoes of your alpha, beta, gamma.

OP. You make good points, but there is one that does not apply to me, which is the risk of getting worse. Trust me, I really am coming at this from the chopper end of the spectrum.

I too have been going at this for about 10 years, and I too view this as far more of a hobby and interest than as a desperate need to reduce handicap or hit the ball further.

Right now, and this can change, I am working my way towards "as simple as possible, as uncompensated as possible". If I get there, maybe I will then try to build back in something more advanced, whilst trying to avoid lots of compensations.

I can feel when I am compensating, which is a big help. I feel rushed, the downswing is a blur, the finish is off balance.

Anyway, I am talking a good game but tomorrow will be my first round with just Space, Time and Zach in my head.

I will report back.

for me,..i too had compensations going on,my biggest hassle in getting swing to be repetitive,i have been a hitter trying to convert to a swinger.But always sneek back to hitters pattern when pressure is on in my game....I have thankfully reverted back to full time hitters pattern with need to use swing on different shots around green,at least with hitting i am fully confident that i will strike small ball first,not the big ball first.......i do believe that my body just wouldnt move as subtly as needed.....and its too old to train lol.cheers


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#11 Old Poppy

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 09:10 AM

Devon, If you are a chopper then you really do have a big job ahead of you. Usually the average right handed golfer plays the game with his right side. He may have the feeling that he is leading with the left but in reality it is his strong side that is doing the majority the work. The left side is conforming to the right.
To be a good golfer a player needs to be ambidextrous. The orthodox moves of all good golf swings have the target side in control from beginning to end.
Golf is a game of opposites and is a very complex discipline. It only becomes simple when we have done all the hard work to make it simple. Simple is popular golf instruction which really doesn't help golfers improve; its purpose is to help people make an entrance into golf and become a patron of the game/golf industry.
My advice is to work at developing your opposite hand in your normal everyday life. If you are right handed then learn to write left handed,writing backwards from right to left. Use your left hand to handle a knife while your right uses the fork etc. Learn the movements you do in your current golf swing from the opposite side. This exercise will give you a much clearer understanding of what you are doing in your normal swing.
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#12 Zenstb

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 10:42 AM

Devon,
There is peoples perceptions and truth.
The information I posted isn't about hitting the ball further etc.
My intension is providing the truth of what truly occurs.Majority of the things we read about golf, is based on someone's perceptions. That maybe their truth. Is it really the truth ? It's what they believe and precieve.
In years to come as more golfers are tested using 3D and technology advances, we learn the truth of how golfers truly moves.

Myself when I read something on golf,I accept that, this is their perceptions of what they perceive. Is it the truth ?

Golf is making a massive shift as science and technology is now being accepted and utilised we are starting to understand the truths of how the human body truly moves.
The perceptions are fading and the truth is starting to surface.
What I'm learning is the only truth I do know is the physics of the golf club. It's black and white.
Good ball strikers works with the physics of the golf club. Poor strikers don't.
Look at the tour players they are all different body types, in their own unique way move slightly different. Their planes are slightly different etc. Their hips and shoulders open slightly different at impact.

A few things we do know. Is their coordination patterns are similar starting from the ground up. The coordinations patterns how they apply force to the ground is similar.
The one thing I do know is a truth and certainty is you apply the right physics to the club and you become a good ball striker.
It's one certainty we do know. It's the one key ingredient or could call fundamental they all do is apply the right physics to the club.
If someone says to me that doesn't work the answer is simple. You haven't found your way to apply the right physics to the club.
You can try bend and move your body however you like. Your ball striking will not improve unless you improve the physics of the golf club.
All the ball cares about is the moment of truth impact.


I wasted my time teaching kinetic links as my perception and belief it was the holy grail. Yes it was important, yes it was what tour players had and poor golfers didn't have. Ground forces were the same. Yes they are important. Although was that the truth ? What is truly important. The one key ingredient is the physics of the club , you find a way to get this right. Our swing changes, our movement changes.

These days I don't waste people's time and energy on trying to move this way or you don't move like a tour player. Simply use the 3D to give them the feels of how to work with the physics of the golf club. Let them be them, allow thier body to move freely how it likes to move. Scary enough,it's interesting how their body starts moving and changes naturally once they know how to move the golf club and apply the right physics.

Golf is simple we just make it hard.

Edited by Zenstb, 20 January 2019 - 10:49 AM.

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#13 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 02:09 PM

Golf is simple we just make it hard.


Quite true. I’m certainly an expert at finding new ways of achieving the later. One day I hope to find the holly grail of a nice simple reliable swing. I just wish that it would come sooner rather than later

#14 Zenstb

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 05:07 PM

Quite true. I’m certainly an expert at finding new ways of achieving the later. One day I hope to find the holly grail of a nice simple reliable swing. I just wish that it would come sooner rather than later


We are all artists of our own. We have to create our own story.
Hogan books, that was his story, his perceptions, his ideas. They worked for him. Did they truly work for anyone else?
Look at all the greats they all have their own story , perceptions etc.

Golf coaches what is their story ?
Pc, he's left handed playing righ handed.
You push the left hand works for him.
He use to also get in front of it with his body in his Golf swing. So start arms and hands first out in front pushing the hand or unlocking.
Makes sense ?
The other coach, what is his story? Follow it, you begin to see where the beliefs and perceptions come from. They are selling their story.
TGM what I like about it is chapter 12 check list. You find the components your swing consists of then ingrain those components.
You are given a bunch of ideas to create your own story.

The truth is Jack most these tour players had no rules, they got a club and just kept swinging and swinging. No ideas, no thoughts, they were kids, knew no different. They just kept swinging until they developed their style. Stick to the same story.
Key is keep the same story.
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#15 Devongolfer

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 06:11 PM

Zen,

thanks for all the great posts, learning lots, using some so far.

You talked about physics being fundamental, and I totally agree.

But your most recent posts have been about shaft rotation.

What I thought you were saying was this: rotate the shaft as fast as you can, now you can rotate the body flat out, indeed you need to otherwise you will hit a hook. I thought this was meant to be a way to add distance by adding pivot speed.

Have I missed your point?




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