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2019 Rules - Your Experiences And Questions


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#106 golfguy33

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:59 PM

OB, I always marvel at the way you manage to be so condescending in what you write with regards to a simple rules question. This could be one of the reasons that alot of people don't take to you straight away !

 

Because the "fellow competitor" did not hear the instruction by the player, do you still think that the penalty is valid ? ( someone other than Phil to answer, please )

Jon...  



#107 PuttOvr

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 06:32 AM

Interesting, golfguy33

So the question is about the penalty for the pin puller, he was just doing as we always have done. Simply removing the pin, but now he's looking at a 2 stroke penalty.
 

I am leaving the flag in on every put, but there are still players that quickly remove the flag as your lining up the putt, I just puttout and don't say anything when this happens 

Good question...... golfguy33
 



#108 PuttOvr

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 11:53 AM

Sorry if this question has been covered before:
Yesterday my playing partner was having a good game, then he hit a ball into the scrub, 
I was on the opposite side of the fairway and played my ball before walking across to help look for his ball. Buy the time I had got to his ball the 3 minutes was just about finished.
The 3 minutes to look for a ball starts when the player starts looking, so to be competitive can the player wait on the edge of the fairway until all 4 in his group have arrived to start looking at the same time.
Making the 3 minutes more affective 
Cheers 



#109 OldBogey

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 02:53 PM

Sorry if this question has been covered before:
Yesterday my playing partner was having a good game, then he hit a ball into the scrub, 
I was on the opposite side of the fairway and played my ball before walking across to help look for his ball. Buy the time I had got to his ball the 3 minutes was just about finished.
The 3 minutes to look for a ball starts when the player starts looking, so to be competitive can the player wait on the edge of the fairway until all 4 in his group have arrived to start looking at the same time.
Making the 3 minutes more affective 
Cheers


The three minutes starts from "when the search begins", not necessarily from when the player whose ball you're looking for starts searching.
In answer to your question, yes you could wait until all are present, but that's hardly the 'right' thing to do. The change was instigated to minimise delays, not add extra delays because someone has a stopwatch.
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#110 PuttOvr

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 05:21 PM

So predictable that the rule should have been drafted to take account of it. There is now an "interpretation" in the definition of "Lost"

 

Interpretation Lost/2 - Player May Not Delay the Start of Search to Gain an Advantage

The three-minute search time for a ball starts when the player or his or her caddie (or the player's partner or partner's caddie) starts to search for it. The player may not delay the start of the search in order to gain an advantage by allowing other people to search on his or her behalf.

For example, if a player is walking towards his or her ball and spectators are already looking for the ball, the player cannot deliberately delay getting to the area to keep the three-minute search time from starting. In such circumstances, the search time starts when the player would have been in a position to search had he or she not deliberately delayed getting to the area.

Thanks Forrest 
Great reply 



#111 Weetbix

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 06:54 PM

And accurate

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#112 ColinCL

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 07:38 PM

You said 'playing partner' but I assume you meant, in this instance, 'fellow competitor'.  i.e. not a team competition.  Also assume usual stroke play, not a match.  Also assume the ball was not at rest in the hole, hence not holed.

 

Rule 11.2b  The dickhead who pulled the pin out incurs the general penalty (two strokes) for deflecting a ball in motion.

 

Rule 11.2c(2)  The stroke is cancelled and the player gets to try it again, without penalty, from where he last played.

 

Etiquette:  Aforementioned dickhead has to buy the aforementioned player a beer.

 

Just to tidy up a couple of things.   Let's assume he meant "another player" as the term "fellow competitor"  is no longer in use. The "dickhead" only gets a penalty if he deliberately deflected the player's ball. And that applies to match play and stroke play and team competitions.


Edited by ColinCL, 17 February 2019 - 07:41 PM.


#113 golfguy33

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 10:20 PM

Thank you Colin for that pearl, makes alot more sense than the OB reference and what I was looking for.

Jon... 

:)



#114 ColinCL

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 01:34 AM

It's very clear.  11.1 is about accidental deflection; 11.2 is about deliberate deflection.   In situations such as the one described, you have to determine whether the action was accidental or deliberate and from that you know which rule to apply.  

 

It would be as well to note too that there is a difference in where you play from between a ball accidentally hitting the flagstick and a ball being deliberately stopped or deflected by the flagstick or the person removing it.  See 13.2b(2)


Edited by ColinCL, 18 February 2019 - 01:52 AM.

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#115 ColinCL

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 01:51 AM

The three minutes starts from "when the search begins", not necessarily from when the player whose ball you're looking for starts searching.
 

See the Definition of "Lost":

 

The status of a ball that is not found in three minutes after the player or his or her caddie (or the player’s partner or partner’s caddie) begins to search for it.

 

Given a choice, I think I'll go by the Definition. ;)



#116 ColinCL

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 03:20 PM

The definition will only help if you also go by the interpretation as above.

Not so,  The Definition clearly defines when the search starts and that is necessarily when the player whose ball you are looking for starts it - contrary to what OB said.

 

The Interpretation deals specifically with a player deliberately delaying the start of  the search by not looking for it himself but leaving the looking to others.  That does not modify the definition of when the search starts.  


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#117 OldBogey

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 03:50 PM

Just to tidy up a couple of things.   Let's assume he meant "another player" as the term "fellow competitor"  is no longer in use. The "dickhead" only gets a penalty if he deliberately deflected the player's ball. And that applies to match play and stroke play and team competitions.

  

It's very clear.  11.1 is about accidental deflection; 11.2 is about deliberate deflection.   In situations such as the one described, you have to determine whether the action was accidental or deliberate and from that you know which rule to apply.  
 
It would be as well to note too that there is a difference in where you play from between a ball accidentally hitting the flagstick and a ball being deliberately stopped or deflected by the flagstick or the person removing it.  See 13.2b(2)


I would expect that, after the player has stated he wants the flag left in, if another player wrenches the flag out just as the player's ball hits the hole, it was a very deliberate act and not accidental. If the other player had tripped over his own shadow then tried to steady himself by using the flag stick and accidentally pulled it from the hole, that might be accidental.
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#118 Birdie Blitz

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 03:52 PM

Just wondering about the definition of when the search starts. To be honest as I am walking down the fairway (or more usually rough)  I'm scanning to see where my ball is a couple hundred meters away. Potentially my 3 minutes may be up before I have reached the area in which the ball probably lies.

 

 

Is there a difference between looking and searching?


Edited by Birdie Blitz, 18 February 2019 - 03:53 PM.


#119 OldBogey

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 04:20 PM

Just wondering about the definition of when the search starts. To be honest as I am walking down the fairway (or more usually rough)  I'm scanning to see where my ball is a couple hundred meters away. Potentially my 3 minutes may be up before I have reached the area in which the ball probably lies.
 
 
Is there a difference between looking and searching?


A good question BB. In my experience, most players just have a good look before giving up and no-one times it. Nothing resembling a police line search.

Should 'search' be defined so that there's no doubt?
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#120 ColinCL

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 05:10 PM

  
I would expect that, after the player has stated he wants the flag left in, if another player wrenches the flag out just as the player's ball hits the hole, it was a very deliberate act and not accidental. If the other player had tripped over his own shadow then tried to steady himself by using the flag stick and accidentally pulled it from the hole, that might be accidental.

 

And the other player, like me, might have some hearing difficulties and have misheard the player saying he wanted it left it.  

 

All of which simply emphasises the  point I was making, that it is necessary to  determine the facts before deciding whether an action was accidental or deliberate.






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