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Deja Vu All Over Again


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#31 Old Poppy

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 10:12 PM

I don't doubt that some or even many would consider the idea taboo. On the other hand sloppy right leg action with the knee buckled out (or overly straight) and weight on the outside of the right foot isn't encouraged either. Anything which will assist in getting back to square a bit earlier on the down swing can only help at the moment even if it is a crutch.
 
I am pleased to report that working on getting my weight onto the inside of the left foot early in the downswing has coincided with a significant reduction in hip and lower left back pain. Whether I have stopped hurting myself remains to be seen.

The issue with keeping the weight on the inside of the right leg during the backswing is that it internally rotates the right hip and makes that hip the pivot point of the hip turn. Not only does it move the hips closer to the ball position but it doesn't give the left hip and leg a brace to pull against during transition. Consequently the player has difficulty with hip rotation and ends up sliding at best which results in a body stall and a flip release.
It is this situation which puts the lower spine at risk because the lumber spine needs to be in nutation with the pelvis (solidly joined together during transition - referred to as nutation) to withstand the shear forces generated during the downswing.
The correct movements during the backswing is for the trail hip and leg to rote clockwise, the target hip and leg also rotate clockwise with both feet and ankles resisting. The spine and ribcage also rotate clockwise with the upper spine extending as the spine reaches full rotation. Some pros feel the weight on the outside of the trail heel and the big toe in the air. The leg is straight and extended with the knee pointing outside the trail foot.
The transition has the target leg and hip rotating counterclockwise while the trail hip retains its clockwise position. This action with the left hip and leg needs to be fast, as if hitting the ball with the left knee. When the left foot hits the ground the tailbone is rotated away from the target using the resistance of the ground.
The normal swing takes about one second and the forward swing less than half of a second. So there is no time to
connsciously control these movements. They have to be learned and practiced through repetition, mostly without a ball. It took me years to own them in my own swing.
I hope this brief summary helps with your quest. Cheers
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#32 Old Poppy

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 11:23 AM

FG
Jack Nicklaus didn't write any of his publications under his name. The book mentioned was written by journalist Ken Bowden. Jack like many other Champions was cashing in on his fame.

The fact is that very few instruction books were actually written by Champion golfers. The only one I am sure it was Bobby Jones who wrote two columns each week in newspapers during 1927 to 1935. His important works were published in a Golf Digest Classic Book - Bobby Jones on Golf.

It is common knowledge that Jones's writings had a tremendous influence on golf instruction during the golden Age of golf. Nicklaus, Player, Tiger all based their swing concepts on Jones's writings. Jones had a degree in English literature so he know how to write.
Writing about his own swing he states that at the top the weight is over the outside of the heel and his big toe has lifted from the ground.
Look I brought this to your attention because tour players have the weight either directly over the foot or to the outside. The right hip is externally rotated and abducted during the backswing with the left hip the pivot point.
You can take up this advice or leave it if you are happy with a body stall or a jump stall action. You just won't develop a rotational swing like the pros.

#33 Old Poppy

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:11 PM

This is what Jones wrote " As related to the feet, then, the correct action transfers the weight supported by the left leg to the inside of the foot, and at the top of the swing the left heel has been pulled from the ground and the inside of the ball of the foot is bearing the burden. The exact reverse of this action takes place on the right side, for the weight at the top of the swing rests upon the outside of he heel. In my own case, and in that of all players who employ a full body turn, the weight is moved so far back on the right foot that the large toe is actually lifted from the ground.

One has to wonder where popular golf instruction came up with keeping the weight inside the right foot thing?

Edited by Old Poppy, 01 January 2019 - 12:15 PM.


#34 Old Poppy

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 01:12 PM

Why not check yourself with present tour players on YouTube. I remember seeing one of Justin Thomas that was glaringly obvious just before transition. It really depends on the camera angle in relation to the inside of the right foot. You can also discuss it with your teaching pro.
One interesting thing about how athletes cope with these sorts of issues - they set up at address with a fully internally rotated right hip which has the knee twisted into the ball and sitting back on the right hip. The right glute is facing away from the target. This forces the body to move in the opposite rotation during the backswing, perhaps popular golf instruction miss interpreted the purpose of the preliminary hip twist towards the target. When golf became an industry and when journalist were writing instruction publications on what they could see on film, all sorts of theories and concepts were published. Golf instruction that is published has to be correct? Don't think so.

Edited by Old Poppy, 01 January 2019 - 01:16 PM.


#35 Fill the Dill

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 02:39 PM


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#36 iRON MiCK

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 05:25 PM

Great video but needs something

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#37 Old Poppy

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 05:30 PM

Nice one Maxx. Pretty much word for word what he wrote. If I knew that existed, itnwould have saved me all that typing.
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#38 Fill the Dill

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 05:52 PM

Nice one Maxx. Pretty much word for word what he wrote. If I knew that existed, itnwould have saved me all that typing.


When I read your post I straight away thought of that clip.
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#39 Fill the Dill

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 06:03 PM

If you watch the video at the 4:13 minute point when he reaches the top of his backswing you can see the toes on his right foot (trail foot) come off the ground ever so slightly.

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#40 Old Poppy

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 08:23 PM

Let's approach this from an anatomical viewpoint. I am guessing that the leg muscles that you are engaging during the backswing are the adductors that run from the groin to the inside of the knee. Given that there are no specific internal rotators for the hip, then these same muscles assist in internal rotation. Referred to as the Iliopsoas group.
The muscles in external rotation of the hip are six deep muscles in the glute, the tensor facia latae, and the hamstring.
In Jones's swing the Iliopsoas group are engaged during the takeaway, then the external rotators takeover during the upswing to complete the backswing.
Can you describe what you feel during your backswing?

#41 Old Poppy

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 12:35 AM

I checked out the video regarding the spine and pelvic movements. It compares a pivot with the right hip as the door hinge and one with the left hip as the door hinge. The first one relates to a linear swing action while the second depicts a rotational swing. The first has both hips internally rotated at the top of the backswing, while the second has the right hip externally rotated. The first is a slide and stall, the second is rotational. The second is not an accurate depiction of a spine driven rotational swing because it is based on the concept of a closed hip bump in transition from backswing to downswing. The transition movements are a left pelvic tilt plus anterior pelvic tilt to nutate the pelvis and lumber spine in a right lateral bend. This fuses the pelvis and spine as one unit and creating axial rotation of the spine counterclockwise.
The commentary didn't give the info that a golfer could relate to, imo.

Edited by Old Poppy, 02 January 2019 - 12:39 AM.


#42 Old Poppy

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 06:04 PM

Yes, their commentary is often a let down. Every so often they throw in a gem but I generally turn the sound down and just pay attention to what I see.
 
What I got from it was that when the pro rotated his hips his left hip moved toward the target line and his right hip moved away. Did you see that?
 
I didn't see any external rotation of the right hip but we may be talking about different things. Putting it in plain English would your definition or external hip rotation be the equivalent of splaying the foot out or turning it in to be pigeon toed?
 
Thanks for taking a look.

The hip is a deep ball and socket joint which allows four basic movements in an athletic golf swing.
External rotation has the ball shifting forward in the socket.
Internal rotation has the ball shifting backwards in the socket.
Adduction has the ball lifting in the socket.
Abduction has the ball dropping in the socket.

#43 Old Poppy

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:02 PM

Yep. We are definitely talking about different things. Where do you get your definitions?

Why do you ask?

Edited by Old Poppy, 02 January 2019 - 07:03 PM.


#44 Old Poppy

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:47 PM

Well I suggest researching anything that gives you the knowledge you need to articulate what you mean. That is what I did over many years.

#45 Fill the Dill

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:31 PM

As we complete our backswing we should feel the strain in the inner thigh of our right leg, rather than the inside of the right foot.

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