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Swing Mechanics Without Athletic Ability


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#196 333pg333

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 04:05 PM

Down and out is prior to impact and then the hands works left as the body turns left. By employing the down and out stops the golfer cutting the hands left too earlier and prevent going outside in or club throwaway. In the 3D video this is an avatar of the club and hand path of the Tour average. Supports what TGM is speaking about. You can see the right arm extending and the right wrist extending out heading into impact.

Thanks for this Zen. It was the only explanation I expected. I think I'm starting to get some things squared away in my mind. Using this video as an example and then extrapolating to someone like DJ, the club looks closed to my way of thinking, but I believe what is happening is that it is sort of in a pre-set or impact position and can only work with this 'hold-off' release otherwise you'll never see the middle let alone right side of the golf course all day. 

 

Someone linked this guy before. http://kelvinmiyahir...aving-lydia-ko  Interesting article in the link. However something in there again conflicts with some conceptions I had. In regards to the last pic in that thread he implies that the golfer in the red shirt is coming down too flat and from the inside which will lead to the flip release that he dislikes. However Hogan laid the club off which would come down similarly to this. Bradley Hughes wants us to lay it off and drop down prior to coming around/through. 

 

Anyway, I am starting to get the whole hold off release thing. Just need to work out the lower half dynamics and figure out how best to get hips to turn or rotate left more than slide forwards. 

Wish one of you guys were up in Sydney. To my great regret, I did have a couple of lessons with The Dart but wasn't ready to make the most from them. Sorry he's not still around for all of us. 



#197 333pg333

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:23 PM

Indeed. 

 

I think golf awareness (to use a word to conceptually cover everything lol) is sort of like learning a language. 

For some time it just sounds like gibber (and some languages still do!), but if you are actually studying it or in another country you start to get these little keyhole openings and all of a sudden stuff starts to make sense and stick. It's like having two (or more) sheets of metal with let's say jigsaw pieces as cutout openings. But the 2 sheets are not in alignment. For whatever reason something shifts the 2 sheets one on top of the other and you can suddenly see through the sheets via the holes in there lining up. It's a bit like this non stop quest to learn golf. Suddenly things start aligning in the brain and hopefully on the dirt. 

 

Keen to try a 'pseudo shut' takeaway - into a hold off release tomorrow. Then I just have to figure out how to get those hips turning left without being too conscious about them. 



#198 Old Poppy

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:32 PM

Nice.
Devon the second last paragraph of Kelvin's article may be relevant to your issue with the right elbow. If we don't keep the club in front of the body during the backswing, the odds favour getting flat and stuck.
I remember a British tour professional - Barry Lane who owned one of the flattest swings on tour. Last time I saw him play on the Senior tour his swing was much more upright.

#199 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:39 PM

I don't think expert golfers think right forearm Jack. My guess is they are pulling up and back with the left trapezes muscle and driving with the right elbow in the later stages of the downswing. This creates a force coupling for rotation - one pulls while the other pushes.


OP,
There are a few things in TGM that Kelley went into in detail. One of those was the trailing Forearm. In section 7-3, he states “it is absolutely MANDATORY that for hitting or swinging, it is the Right Forearm - not just the right hand or club shaft, that must be thrown or driven, into impact”.

It may be that pro golfers do not think about forearm action, it is probably the case that for them, it all comes naturally. Those of us, without athletic ability, have to work at it.

#200 Old Poppy

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:51 PM

Jack it is a shame that he didn't include the body rotation that needs to accompany the driving forearm. If I recall you are having issues incorporating this element into your long game?

#201 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 07:13 PM

One other point that I will make about the video that Zen posted, is the right elbow position as the club starts to release. In the video, it’s clear that the elbow is pointing to the rear. As a hacker, I always tended to have that elbow pointing more to the 4 o’clock position (rather than 6 o’clock). No wonder I had so much trouble with my swing plane
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#202 Zenstb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 07:48 PM

Jack it is a shame that he didn't include the body rotation that needs to accompany the driving forearm. If I recall you are having issues incorporating this element into your long game?


The Three Zones in the book on each topic.
Zone 1: The body
Zone 2: The Arms
Zone 3: The hands
In the book he talks about the pivot and hands , many options to choose from.
One of the best detail books ever written. It was designed for golf instructors.
You do your TGM course and become an authorised instructor.
People don't like the book simply they don't understand the lingo. Then bag it.

How ever ISG was lucky they had Paul Hart one of only 8 golf machine doctorates in the world for golf machine. 30 years of study.
Why Devon and Jack came here.
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Coordination is the key to movement

#203 Old Poppy

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 08:56 PM

Have you read Scott Gunner's book (2009) "Homer Kelley's Golf Machine" about the saga of the TGM book? All followers of TGM should read Gunner's publication. It is loaded with disappointment, politics and infighting within the ranks. I found the book to be quite sad in a way. It is one reason that I have never bothered to read his book. According to Gunner's research it is a compromise of the original document that publishers wouldn't look at.

Edited by Old Poppy, 24 January 2019 - 09:01 PM.


#204 Zenstb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 09:48 PM

Have you read Scott Gunner's book (2009) "Homer Kelley's Golf Machine" about the saga of the TGM book? All followers of TGM should read Gunner's publication. It is loaded with disappointment, politics and infighting within the ranks. I found the book to be quite sad in a way. It is one reason that I have never bothered to read his book. According to Gunner's research it is a compromise of the original document that publishers wouldn't look at.

 

Scott Gummer ??? 

His perceptions and opinion and other perceptions and opinions.  Just like that, their perceptions and opinions.  

There was 7 editions of the book of homers on going ideas.  To get the full story read all 7.

I have 120 hours of Homer kelly on audio speaking about the books and his on going work. Very few have it, totally different prospective.

 

Gummer , let's send him love and light. Trashes another man's life work and cashes in on it, to write a book and make money. This speak volumes within it's self. Let's even pay more respect to him for this nonsense he wrote about, which occurred after Homer Kelly's death. Again this nonsense he wrote about had nothing to do with Homer and  was about people being greedy wanting to take advantage of his widowed wife wanting sole rights to Homer books and Editions. 


Coordination is the key to movement

#205 Zenstb

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 09:52 PM

Thanks for this Zen. It was the only explanation I expected. I think I'm starting to get some things squared away in my mind. Using this video as an example and then extrapolating to someone like DJ, the club looks closed to my way of thinking, but I believe what is happening is that it is sort of in a pre-set or impact position and can only work with this 'hold-off' release otherwise you'll never see the middle let alone right side of the golf course all day. 

 

Someone linked this guy before. http://kelvinmiyahir...aving-lydia-ko  Interesting article in the link. However something in there again conflicts with some conceptions I had. In regards to the last pic in that thread he implies that the golfer in the red shirt is coming down too flat and from the inside which will lead to the flip release that he dislikes. However Hogan laid the club off which would come down similarly to this. Bradley Hughes wants us to lay it off and drop down prior to coming around/through. 

 

Anyway, I am starting to get the whole hold off release thing. Just need to work out the lower half dynamics and figure out how best to get hips to turn or rotate left more than slide forwards. 

Wish one of you guys were up in Sydney. To my great regret, I did have a couple of lessons with The Dart but wasn't ready to make the most from them. Sorry he's not still around for all of us. 

 

I created this quick video for you may shed some light on the topics we are discussing and maybe helpful. 

I touch on shallowing and also the hands out in front and the problems this can cause.


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Coordination is the key to movement

#206 333pg333

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 06:11 AM

Thanks. Makes sense. Appreciate you time to explain via video. Very helpful. 

Not sure how physically possible it is for older guys to get into some of the positions that the Pro's do. eg as deep as they get through backswing to top. 

Ability to have super open hips at impact while head still over ball. Thinking of Fleetwood for example. 

If that's the case then is all lost? Obviously less flexible people can still play golf well. 

Maybe a case of good hand to eye and playing the game for a while? 



#207 Zenstb

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:14 AM

Thanks. Makes sense. Appreciate you time to explain via video. Very helpful.
Not sure how physically possible it is for older guys to get into some of the positions that the Pro's do. eg as deep as they get through backswing to top.
Ability to have super open hips at impact while head still over ball. Thinking of Fleetwood for example.
If that's the case then is all lost? Obviously less flexible people can still play golf well.
Maybe a case of good hand to eye and playing the game for a while?

In my experience I haven't had that issue with Senior golfers.
At impact with golfers hips not open enough is not a range of motion issue. Rather a swing pattern issue.
What I failed to discuss in video and should have also discussed was when you try to get the elbow in front or hands out in front. The golfers swing pattern start down is either arms, then shoulders and hips fire late. Or shoulders , arms and hips.( swing pattern is out of sequence)
Tour players start with the hips, then shoulders, arms, hands and club.

In summary,if the hips fire late, the hips can't catch up to the shoulders and arms, so the hips aren't open very much at impact.
The perceptions developed is people lack hip range of motion.

You don't necessarily need your hips to be as far open left as the tour players are.Their hips are so far open due to rotating their body at higher speeds.

What is important is getting the hips to fire first and what you would find is your hips would easily be open 30 degrees which is all your need to replicate the same pattern as the tour player does.

However if you couldn't achieve the hips to open 30 degrees due to range of motion issues. Try opening your left foot out like Hogan and this will give you more range of motion. This fails simply set your hips and shoulders slightly open at setup with left foot flare.
Some tour players that hips are open crazy numbers like 50 degrees, I generally find at setup their hips and shoulders are open about 10 degrees. Can sometimes see this with players who fade the ball as well setting up left.

This senior tour player his feedback yesterday was he can't believe how far his arms felt behind his body. How far infront his body felt in front of his hands.
Which is a great result he now has a feel to take to the golf course. If he doesn't feel these things above he's not doing it right.

Edited by Zenstb, 25 January 2019 - 07:15 AM.

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#208 Old Poppy

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 10:42 AM

Thanks. Makes sense. Appreciate you time to explain via video. Very helpful. 
Not sure how physically possible it is for older guys to get into some of the positions that the Pro's do. eg as deep as they get through backswing to top. 
Ability to have super open hips at impact while head still over ball. Thinking of Fleetwood for example. 
If that's the case then is all lost? Obviously less flexible people can still play golf well. 
Maybe a case of good hand to eye and playing the game for a while?

I think I am qualified to answer this. When I was in my mid 60s there was no way I could rotate similar to a tour pro. Even though I had been doing Feldenkrais exercises almost daily since my mid 40s. The problem was in my golf swing. When I started reading Kelvin's articles about 10 years ago, I modified the Feldenkrais exercises to incorporate the movement patterns that Kelvin was writing about, especially how to turn micro movements into macro movement. I would do several hundred reps in several exercises daily, 360 days of the year. I still do these exercises daily but only for a few hundred reps. They are a great way to relax and feel all the rotational movements of the golf swing while lying on an exercise mat listening to music.
I am now well into my 70's and can rotate like a tour pro without an restrictions. I work on exercises for a righty swing and also a lefty swing to balance out the muscles on both sides of the spine and to feel how it all works from both sides.
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#209 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:09 AM

Zen,
I still can’t see any action in the video that you describe as shallowing. Are you able to zoom in and show us a close up of the hands at that point, so we can see what they are doing?

When you say that the club is being shallowed, can you please tell me what is driving that motion? Is it a forearm action or a wrist motion or an elbow motion perhaps? Is it a combination of those things?

I am not sure if the action that I do with the right forearm results in the same alignment as shallowing does but what you describe in the video is pretty much what I experience. I would describe my action which is a slight inward rotation of the right forearm, at the top, as forearm shallowing, as it allows the forearm through on the shallow plain. Just like in your video. Indeed, it does feel like the hands are caught behind but miraculously they clear the hips and get in front, as you describe.


Sorry if I am being a pain with these questions, I just want to get a handle on this key part of the golf swing. Thanks again for your help.

#210 Zenstb

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 03:19 PM

I think I am qualified to answer this. When I was in my mid 60s there was no way I could rotate similar to a tour pro. Even though I had been doing Feldenkrais exercises almost daily since my mid 40s. The problem was in my golf swing. When I started reading Kelvin's articles about 10 years ago, I modified the Feldenkrais exercises to incorporate the movement patterns that Kelvin was writing about, especially how to turn micro movements into macro movement. I would do several hundred reps in several exercises daily, 360 days of the year. I still do these exercises daily but only for a few hundred reps. They are a great way to relax and feel all the rotational movements of the golf swing while lying on an exercise mat listening to music.
I am now well into my 70's and can rotate like a tour pro without an restrictions. I work on exercises for a righty swing and also a lefty swing to balance out the muscles on both sides of the spine and to feel how it all works from both sides.

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????? These swings you believe are like a tour players body movement ?
Coordination is the key to movement




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