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Why Are Caddies Allowed To Help?

Caddies help assistance

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#16 Monty85

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 12:18 PM

Over time I belive this would be a much better game to watch and a lot quicker for pros ...and if they don't speed up....then penalise them. Simple. They would soon learn.

 

They try to penalise them now over slow play. Nothing is changing though.

 

I'd actually like to see them be more strict with slow groups. There's no reason the final group should be 2 to 3 holes behind. However, I also don't want to see a tournament decided by a penalty for slow play.

 

Swings and Roundabouts.


Edited by Monty85, 08 January 2015 - 12:18 PM.

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#17 northerner

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 03:37 PM

Ernie Els tells a story from his youth when he was playing some high level junior tournament with his brother on the bag. His brother worked out the yardage and gave him a 4 iron I think. Ernie duly hit it and it was still rising as it cleared the green and carried on another 50m or more into a carpark. Turns out the brother was looking at the wrong hole on his yardage book.

I suspect he learned a lesson there, that relying on the caddy to the exclusion of using your brain and eye is a little dangerous
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#18 Joe Blake

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 07:00 PM

Just read a rules thread that made me question the whole caddy thing. It seems extraordinary to me that a caddy can provide so much advice and real assistance to .....


The difference is that the caddy is an integral part of the game since its earliest beginnings. There is miles of diffference between a caddy and an artificial device. The spirit of the game is that is always been the golfer, with stick and ball.

The rules have always prohibited artificial devices, and there was no blurry lines. The introduction of the DMD has blurred that a bit, but the principal remains.

And for the suggestion that caddies shouldn't give advice is never going to happen, as that would be ridiculously hard to police at all levels of golf.
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#19 OldBogey

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 07:25 PM

The caddy was an integral part of the game. He provided local knowledge and carried the clubs. But today, only touring pros and the wealthy have caddies.

Ok, pennant players and visitors to Asia (where we are relatively wealthy) might have a caddy.

But for the vast majority of golfers, a caddy is out of the equation. So, why should the few who regularly have a caddy play under different conditions than everybody else?

If caddies were not permitted to give advice, etc. I'm sure golfers could follow the rules, just like they adhere to all the other rules.

If we're allowed to use a DMD and a cart, why aren't the touring pros?

Much is regularly claimed that we all play under the same rules, conditions and equipment as the best in the world, but clearly we don't.
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#20 pom

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:43 PM

Everyone seems to be missing the main point here. Intentional?
The caddies carry the Course notes to help the players judge distance etc. These course notes would have been put together by caddie & player who would have walked ( played ) the course before the competition started. There is nothing preventing the club player from walking the course before play , or in the case where he has not played the course, playing a couple of practice rounds & making up his own course notes. we do it quite often for pennant where we can be playing courses we have not played before.
As an amateur you can also carry notes on club selection & distances . just not on electronic devices.
Sometimes I sit here & wonder why some people on here play the game at all going by the number of complaints about different aspects of the game that they post.
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#21 Barney60

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:50 PM

The difference is that the caddy is an integral part of the game since its earliest beginnings. There is miles of diffference between a caddy and an artificial device. The spirit of the game is that is always been the golfer, with stick and ball.
The rules have always prohibited artificial devices, and there was no blurry lines. The introduction of the DMD has blurred that a bit, but the principal remains.
And for the suggestion that caddies shouldn't give advice is never going to happen, as that would be ridiculously hard to police at all levels of golf.


You raise some interesting points.
My research suggests that caddies started initially as forecaddies to find the ball for a golfer, which in the beginning were prohibitively expensive ( a weeks wages) Had these players had technology to find the ball you can be assured that they would have.
This had nothing to so with the spirit of the game but pure economic sense. Cheaper to hire a caddie then lose a ball. Nowadays it is cheaper to run an app then it is to hire a caddie ( that basically don't exist in many places anyway. )
And are their really that many differences between the two?
Both give yardages - the caddie remember used a gps before the day to record a multitude of distances.
They both can recommend the club to hit.
They both can advise the the golfer of the wind direction.
They both can tell you whether the pin is above or below your ball.
They both help you count your score.
One carries your bag the other you carry in your bag.

But only one can read your putting line, line up your ball on the putting green, talk to you about your swing, remind you to have a drink and then gets it for you etc.

Really, if you had the option you would have a caddy, if it was only someone to talk through and seek a second opinion on your thought process etc but for all but the elite and the very rich it is no longer an option. (It wasn't always like that btw, my part time job as a teenager in the 70's was caddying at a country golf club, $ 5 to $6 and a drink for the round. There were ten of us and always a morning and afternoon booking.)

I agree, you can't police caddies talk, so we allow it. The DMD box is already open so let it happen. Providing it doesn't slow play, give the golfer as much info as they want from the App Caddie. Ban them from professional golf or club championships if you wish but for the run of the mill event who cares. That would be in the spirit of the game.

#22 Barney60

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:59 PM

Everyone seems to be missing the main point here. Intentional?The caddies carry the Course notes to help the players judge distance etc. These course notes would have been put together by caddie & player who would have walked ( played ) the course before the competition started. There is nothing preventing the club player from walking the course before play , or in the case where he has not played the course, playing a couple of practice rounds & making up his own course notes. we do it quite often for pennant where we can be playing courses we have not played before.As an amateur you can also carry notes on club selection & distances . just not on electronic devices.Sometimes I sit here & wonder why some people on here play the game at all going by the number of complaints about different aspects of the game that they post.


Part I - Time.
Part 2 - If you don't ask why nothing changes.

#23 pom

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:59 PM

Do you have a local rule forbidding use of a Caddie? We don't. Might be a bit difficult to find one though. All the information the caddie has in his notes was written down earlier during the walk around the course. not taken from a device on the day.
Sure the caddie can tell you wind direction. by looking at the way it is blowing. Same as the playere. He does not have a device that tells him that either. The whole point about this is the use or not of an artificial device to help with some parts of the game. This would be fine but the devices keep coming up with new apps faster than the rules makers can check them out. For me Ban the use of mobile phones as DMDs completely & stick to dedicated measuring devices only.
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#24 pom

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 09:02 PM

Part I - Time.
Part 2 - If you don't ask why nothing changes.

Not aimed at you personally. Mainly at those that want to change the rules and most everything else to make the game easier. For mine most people take up the game because it is so challenging. Why then try to make it easier.
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#25 Joe Blake

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 09:42 PM

But for the vast majority of golfers, a caddy is out of the equation. So, why should the few who regularly have a caddy play under different conditions than everybody else?
.

That's not a reason to change the rules. If it was you would also prohibit, DMD's, ball retrievers, electric carts, 7 degree drivers , the list goes on,

#26 Barney60

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 09:59 PM

Not aimed at you personally. Mainly at those that want to change the rules and most everything else to make the game easier. For mine most people take up the game because it is so challenging. Why then try to make it easier.


No worries, I didn't take it personally.
I don't even own a DMD, if I was so concerned about making it easier I would have had one years ago.

#27 OldBogey

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 10:28 PM

Not aimed at you personally. Mainly at those that want to change the rules and most everything else to make the game easier. For mine most people take up the game because it is so challenging. Why then try to make it easier.


To make it easier to hit the shots? No, technological advancements in clubs and balls do that already.

To make it easier to follow fewer and simplified rules and enhance speed of play?
Yes, that will make golf more attractive to more people. Traditions are fine for occasional, special events, but not when they impede on everyday life.
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#28 Turfers Paradise

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 10:50 PM

Some discussion here from the experts http://forums.iseekg...-3#entry1259369



After all your years on tour, that's it???? Pfffffftt




Just because you have a caddy, you don't need to take their advise. My son recently played pebble beach and on the tee he was thinking 5 iron. Caddy tells him what club to hit, son clears the green. Caddy apologises and offers another club, son clears green a second time. Caddy apologises, offers another club, son says just give me the 5 iron Bingo, on green.
Can you guys seriously imagine the pros doing their own work??? Fark me it would take them 30 mins to play a par 4, if they had to do the work themselves.
The caddy has the book out halfway to the next shot and they are probably discussing what club then. It's more the female golfing pros that have caddies help line up their putts, IMO, ( I don't have foxtel, so this is an assumption).

Footnote: Tol the Queensland SOO side have had assistance from the referees and linesman for the last 8 years!!!!!!!!!
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#29 Bogey Golfer

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 11:07 PM

Do you have a local rule forbidding use of a Caddie? We don't. Might be a bit difficult to find one though. All the information the caddie has in his notes was written down earlier during the walk around the course. not taken from a device on the day.
Sure the caddie can tell you wind direction. by looking at the way it is blowing. Same as the playere. He does not have a device that tells him that either. The whole point about this is the use or not of an artificial device to help with some parts of the game. This would be fine but the devices keep coming up with new apps faster than the rules makers can check them out. For me Ban the use of mobile phones as DMDs completely & stick to dedicated measuring devices only.

 In pennant the rule in our penannt comp is that the caddie is not allowed to be a professional golfer.

 

Interesting because pros are now being allowed to play in GV pennnat games, but that is discussion in another thread.

 

pro's can use DMD's (sonacaddie Sureshot lazers etc) in Pro Am comps, but not in bigger 4 day competitions.


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