Jump to content


 

Photo

Looking at Graphs


  • Please log in to reply
78 replies to this topic

#31 ThanksForAllTheFish

ThanksForAllTheFish

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1852 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:20 AM

Not "blokes" Handicap2hi. Bloke. I don't want a "bite" at AB, but I don't want his ongoing abuse either. He seems to say that the matter is over as far as he is concerned. Time will tell. I'm quite happy for others to read what I write or not. Answer, don't answer. Fall asleep. Read this thread. Don't read this thread. It's all the same to me. As it happens, several people here have pointed me in the direction of useful information. Now, barring further witty interjections and well intended advice I will have my say on the graphs and that should be the end of it.

#32 ThanksForAllTheFish

ThanksForAllTheFish

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1852 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:29 AM

(Graph was removed- did not have permission from source for its usage) The above graph appears to be a velocity-time graph. This is confirmed by this graphic accompanying an article at insidegolf.com.au According to AB above, the red curve shows the movement of the hips. He tells us that what is measured is rotation around the spine. What then does the graph show? Initially the hips are stationary (on the axis). The hips then briefly have a negative rotation (below the axis) then begin rotating positively (above the axis). The hip rotation speed is fairly steady for most of the graph before the graph drops and begins rotating negatively (below the axis). Contrary to what AB said above, the slope represents acceleration and the maximum acceleration is between t=4 and t=10. At t=10 there is NO acceleration. So, if this is an angular velocity-time graph, it seems to show a downswing. That makes the negative rotation of the hips after impact interesting to say the least. I cannot recall any top line player turning his hips backwards so soon after impact. Now the shoulders (blue) and arms (green).They show a negative rotation (below the axis) for approximately 20% of the downswing. The shoulders and arms achieve the same positive speed as the hips just before t=12. Note that there is no significant deceleration of the hips at this time. Certainly nothing like the deceleration the graph shows after impact. The curve for the hips is almost flat indicating reasonably constant speed and next to no acceleration. So much for the graph supporting the "slowing down" theory. It doesn't. The area under the respective curves tells us how far each component has rotated. Certainly by about t=16 the shoulders and arms have caught and passed the hips. By impact they would be well ahead of the hips. I cannot recall any top line player reaching impact with the shoulders and arms ahead of the hips. Then we have a look at the club (black). Remember, AB tells us this is rotation around the spine. By t=16, when the shoulders pass the hips, for the first time in the downswing the club stops its negative rotation (below the axis) and for the first time takes a positive rotation (above the axis). This is well over half way through the entire downswing. I cannot recall any top line player taking that long to start the club back to the ball. Finally, look at the black curve after impact. It heads steeply down. Much more steeply down than the curve ever headed up. In about 5% of the total time of the downswing, the black line reaches zero (club has stopped rotating) and begins a negative rotation. The area under the black curve indicates that the shaft would have to stop around knee height on the follow through. I have never seen a top line player decelerate that quickly after impact. What conclusions can be reached? 1. This is not a golf swing 2. This is not an angular velocity-time graph My question remains. What exactly are these graphs showing? AB plainly doesn't know and abuse is no substitute for knowledge.

#33 Tolmij

Tolmij

    Just enjoying life

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27257 posts
  • LocationHere in paradise

Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:48 AM

Now I know why I didn't take Maths, and should take up another less sophisticated sport. As stink said more popcorn please.

#34 ThanksForAllTheFish

ThanksForAllTheFish

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1852 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:57 AM

Now I know why I didn’t take Maths, and should take up another less sophisticated sport.
As stink said more popcorn please.

Unless AB or Zen or somebody else has something more to say that should be the end of it. It certainly should be the end of AB's abuse about what the graphs show. If he has any other gripes with me, he is welcome to start a new thread and point out what so offends him.

#35 Tolmij

Tolmij

    Just enjoying life

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27257 posts
  • LocationHere in paradise

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:05 AM

To be honest, if this is the level of scrutiny we are using for the golf swing, we need to be looking at ourselves in the mirror to make sure we are not growing two heads. Past golfing greats were more simplistic in their approach and could still teach many of our present tour pros how to play. The problem with golf as with many sports is the advent of million dollar prize money had muddied the water and opened the way for all sorts of hangers on to come in with their theories about THE RIGHT WAY to play. I for one stop finding golf fun with all this stupidity and back biting. Grow up take your ball, spout your theories but if I or anyone else don't believe them that is our right. If someone is upset. tough titties. With you all the way hermit.

#36 AB_Uncut

AB_Uncut

    Advanced Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 1655 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:17 AM

Hermit is right, he always has been right, I just wanted to drop in and say that I officially apologize... You see for a long time since I was a kid I became addicted to conceptual graphs, I developed a condition over time doctors have termed Graphalexia. It got so bad at one stage that I even developed an uncontrollable desire to hoard graph paper. This is the first time I have admitted it publically, and I realise this is only the first step. Whilst thankfully it hasn't hampered my ability to drive the ball over 300 metres, to regular break par and to assist many elite professional athletes increase their on field performance over the last decade, I realise it is truly a problem. I will now be seeking regular treatment for my condition via Graphaholics Anonymous in the hope that I can match my practical knowledge and abilities with my abilities to break the conceptual graph habit I have suffered for a long time. I realise that I have a long road ahead of me but it is a treatable condition from what I am told. I would like to sincerely thank you Hermit for your continued graphical criticism, you have truly shown me the error of my ways and have inspired me to become truly more graphically efficient in my future. Thank you Hermit, it has been a long term problem I was afraid to own up to. I realise now that practical knowledge and abilities are not what they are cracked up to be and I will try harder in the future. No hard feelings....

#37 Russssssssssssssssssssssss

Russssssssssssssssssssssss

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2952 posts
  • LocationMelbourne

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:17 AM

Hermit as the risk of making this thread going on any further maybe you should get tested by Zen then do the drills and see the difference. Believe it or not once you are in the Zenolink program they make sense. Also they are not viewed in isolation, there is more info in terms of numbers that relate to the graphs and I was able to see the difference. Personally I don't know why you are so obsessed with disproving or even understanding these graphs. Why don't you go outside and swing the club then you wil have some real fun.

#38 ThanksForAllTheFish

ThanksForAllTheFish

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1852 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:35 AM

Russ, let's start with the "obsession". In simple terms I had enough of the abuse from AB. Even above you can see his attempted smart arse response to being shown to be wrong. The abuse started when I challenged his graph and hasn't stopped since. As far as Zenolink goes, for all I know they are onto something of great significance. At no time have I said otherwise. You are one of quite a few here who have good things to say about them. When I'm outside playing I do have fun. When I'm here I do not need abuse from AB.

#39 Tolmij

Tolmij

    Just enjoying life

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 27257 posts
  • LocationHere in paradise

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:35 AM

If they are not suposed to be understood , why have them?

#40 ThanksForAllTheFish

ThanksForAllTheFish

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1852 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:39 AM

Hermit is right, he always has been right, I just wanted to drop in and say that I officially apologize…

There's no point trying to be a smart arse AB. You're not equipped for the job. Just leave out the abuse.

#41 Zenstb

Zenstb

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2854 posts
  • LocationMelbourne

Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:01 AM

Can’t wait for the record to be set straight.

This is getting exciting, more popcorn.

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

I really don’t stink so,,,,,,

Assistant forum moderator, servant to MADAM

Stink and Zen sitting together eating pop corn and watching with interest, Stink do you want a glass of wine whilst I'm up making more pop corn, do you want butter or honey or icing sugar with your pop corn this time round. I'm not even going to get into this debate, The graphs are useless with out being able to apply the application. The graphs give us a road map to what people's biomechanical break downs so we can build a training specific for each individual athlete. Hermit, Your interpretation of our graph is totally incorrect and I will ask nicely to please stop trying to interpret our data with out any formal training or education from us how to interpret the graph. Ab was on the right path and with is explanation on page 1. I have explained what this graph was in the past. The graph measures the rotational speed in degrees per second for each body segment. The graph is measuring the acceleration and deceleration of each body segment. That's it. Red hips, blue upper body, green arms and black is club. Y is angular speed in degrees per second. X is frames and time. All this graph is tell us is how the golfers body is coordinating speed in their swing and in what sequence.It tells else how they are creating the power generation process from the ground up. That's all the graph is indicating nothing more. As I have said before we have another 5 graphs which tell us what the lower body and upper body is doing through out the swing, a graph that measure the muscles groups called muscular loading, there is a stability, a club dynamics graphs and performance factor. The end of the day I'm so over this crap to be honest, our company doesn't have justify what we do to anyone. We have credibility and proven ourselves with results for many years. We have tested and worked with more PGA tour players, LPGA players and college players than any one else on the planet.In other sports we have worked with the best athletes on the planet for tennis, baseball,athletics, cycling, we'll we get the general picture. The USPGA ask us to come and speak at their teaching summits educating PGA members about 3D and biomechanics on how the human body functions and moves in the golf swing. We also educate them on application as well. So can we end this thread I have better things to do with my time then try and defend our work on irrelevant stuff that isn't going to help golfers improve. So over this crap.

#42 waffle_iron

waffle_iron

    Legendary

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12714 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:41 AM

Everyone deserves to know how to attack their bean bag.

#43 Weetbix

Weetbix

    Par in my sight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 42710 posts
  • LocationBrisbane, Queensland

Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:58 AM

So, if this is an angular velocity-time graph, it seems to show a downswing. That makes the negative rotation of the hips after impact interesting to say the least. I cannot recall any top line player turning his hips backwards so soon after impact.

Do some searching around here, there is a link to a video of Rory McIlroy that distinctly show his hips turning clockwise. You need to remember that the time scale here is incredibly small - it's hardly surprising that you can't see this with the naked eye.

Note that there is no significant deceleration of the hips at this time. Certainly nothing like the deceleration the graph shows after impact. The curve for the hips is almost flat indicating reasonably constant speed and next to no acceleration. So much for the graph supporting the “slowing down” theory. It doesn’t.

This is pretty poor analysis. How have you determined that the deceleration is not significant? What level of deceleration is necessary? In fact deceleration is deceleration. "Almost flat" is not flat. If you are going to hang your hat on accuracy and technicalities then you shouldn't be using generalisations and poor analysis like this. To be honest Hermit you making these statements doesn't support your proposition that you are providing technically accurate analysis and that zen and AB are not. Your first point above is based only on the evidence that you have not observed the phenomena described, which is poor analysis. Your second is simply your attempt to minimise the actual data provided - how can you make the claim that it is not significant?

#44 waffle_iron

waffle_iron

    Legendary

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12714 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:03 AM

He seems to be cutting AB and Zen to shreds Weetie, and it seems your cruise suffered a similar fate.

#45 Handicap2hi

Handicap2hi

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 750 posts

Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:56 AM

Just to show I have equal contempt for both sides.... Hermit, the bloke you are attacking, justified or not, is selling a product (poorly). He has a couple of advantages over you on here one is that he is a protected species here and the other is that he has obviously helped a couple of blokes on this forum who are more than happy to go into bat for him whenever Zenolink is questioned. It is your choice whether or not to you take up their service, pay up or shut up. I understand you wanting to ask questions and being pissed off at the response but the best idea if you want answers may be to email them directly?? If I'm interested in a product, I will read reviews but if my questions aren't answered I will either drop it or go straight to the source. Zen, I know you only just entered into this conversation so I will cut you some slack here.... I can't believe you let this ab bloke carry on like he does. I know he doesn't work for you and is clearly a (very happy) client but if one of my clients carried on like this on the net I would pull him into line, he states clearly that he doesn't speak for you but he then explains your company's concepts and is happy to criticize opposing views. One more relevant point here Zen is that if you don't want people interpreting your graphs, then don't post them for the world to see. And if I may ask another question Zen, and I mean this sincerely...you often state how many pro's and world class athletes you have tested, does this mean you have also given them pst's or exercises to do? And if so, how many of them actually do them and how many stay with your company for ongoing support? Sorry if the last question is in the wrong thread or whatever....




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users