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#16 N & G Ablett

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 01:21 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 12:12 PM


10- RHS about 210m out. Will stop balls going onto 11th fairway. They need to be long and narrow type

11 - LHS at top of hill. As it is not a long par 5, may see more 3 woods and long irons off the tee

13 - probably ok as it is given the water carry also. you are right

14 - Shorten the hole by 30m. Add bunkers RHS top of hill.

15 - Bunkers on LHS corner. Encourage long hitters to fly the corner, or position play to outside of fairway

18 -12th hole bunkers are not really in play. Need to extend down the side of 18 th fairway. It is such a wide landing zone
I have read the report. Nothing dramatic in there that hasn't been discussed before.

10 (the old 9th). Does this still play as a Par 5 from the tee next to the dam (I have a feeling not)?

11 (the old 10th). How would a bunker on top of the hill stop people hitting driver?

14 (old 17th). Shorten by 30m? Add bunker RHS? Why? If you shorten the hole most people would hit it over the hill anyway.. and what is so special about the RHS that it needs bunkering? If your going to put a bunker anywhere on that hole wouldn't it be the LHS as it is the better line into the green? (RHS greenside bunker complex, stretches down the hill from memory, is not the place to go so best to avoid hitting a long iron over this from the RHS I would have thought).

15 (old 18th). Pull out the trees left, and I mean ALL the trees, and I could be with you on this one.

18 (old 3rd). Nothing wrong with a wide landing zone. You face a much more difficult, and long, shot from the extreme RHS anyway. Have they cut the trees down on the LHS cnr? If they haven't, and they probably should, that's where I would put a bunker complex.



#17 Tinsworth

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 01:42 AM

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 03:21 PM


10 (the old 9th). Does this still play as a Par 5 from the tee next to the dam (I have a feeling not)?

No - The tee is long moved. It's a 380 odd metre Par 4. The only dam near the tee is the pond that laps up to the side of the clubhouse and that is about 10 metres behind.

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 03:21 PM


11 (the old 10th). How would a bunker on top of the hill stop people hitting driver?

It wouldn't as it is well out of range of 99.99% of golfers. A bunker on the top of the hill would only catch mis-hit second shots and the 3rd shot from the average coffin-dodger.

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 03:21 PM


14 (old 17th). Shorten by 30m? Add bunker RHS? Why? If you shorten the hole most people would hit it over the hill anyway.. and what is so special about the RHS that it needs bunkering? If your going to put a bunker anywhere on that hole wouldn't it be the LHS as it is the better line into the green? (RHS greenside bunker complex, stretches down the hill from memory, is not the place to go so best to avoid hitting a long iron over this from the RHS I would have thought).

The ongoing problem with the 14th is the front exit from the green to get to the 15th tee. The LHS is the more open and the landing zone is smack-bang in the middle of the walk to the 15th tee. This has resulted in a compulsory wait for the group in front to clear the hole (and get 1/2 way to the 15th) before the second shot can be played. Further bunkering there could also impact on "bailout zone" on the 17th for those looking to layup short of the tree residing in the middle of the fairway.

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 03:21 PM


15 (old 18th). Pull out the trees left, and I mean ALL the trees, and I could be with you on this one.

Agreed - then it would be a reasonable risk vs reward assessment

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 03:21 PM


18 (old 3rd). Nothing wrong with a wide landing zone. You face a much more difficult, and long, shot from the extreme RHS anyway. Have they cut the trees down on the LHS cnr? If they haven't, and they probably should, that's where I would put a bunker complex.

The inside corner trees are still there. The talk is a bunker complex stretching back from the green to the 12th tee on the RHS of the fairway in order to frame the clubhouse for a lovely photo. A bit "Eagle-Ridgeish" for mine rolleyes.gif



#18 mrdenn1s

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:03 AM

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 03:21 PM


10 (the old 9th). Does this still play as a Par 5 from the tee next to the dam (I have a feeling not)?

11 (the old 10th). How would a bunker on top of the hill stop people hitting driver?

14 (old 17th). Shorten by 30m? Add bunker RHS? Why? If you shorten the hole most people would hit it over the hill anyway.. and what is so special about the RHS that it needs bunkering? If your going to put a bunker anywhere on that hole wouldn't it be the LHS as it is the better line into the green? (RHS greenside bunker complex, stretches down the hill from memory, is not the place to go so best to avoid hitting a long iron over this from the RHS I would have thought).

15 (old 18th). Pull out the trees left, and I mean ALL the trees, and I could be with you on this one.

18 (old 3rd). Nothing wrong with a wide landing zone. You face a much more difficult, and long, shot from the extreme RHS anyway. Have they cut the trees down on the LHS cnr? If they haven't, and they probably should, that's where I would put a bunker complex.

11 - bunker to catch 2nd shots. Most better golfers hit Driver, then long iron landing near the top and rolling down the hill. I reckon some bunkers running down the left side from the top of the hll would add some complexity. Right now, it is hazard free driver, hazard free long iron, wedge

14 - Shorten hole to make it reachable to 18+ handicap golfers. terrain feeds to the right naturally, so it would mean that shot to the left of fairway needs to be precise

15 - leave the trees...just set up risk / reward for trying to cut the corner

18 - Again, they are putting bunkers in on the 12th Par 3...let them stretch back to the 2th tee to catch the extreme wide drive. currently, you can spray it right, and still have a clean 6 iron to the green



#19 Tinsworth

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:07 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 04:03 PM


14 - Shorten hole to make it reachable to 18+ handicap golfers. terrain feeds to the right naturally, so it would mean that shot to the left of fairway needs to be precise

Why shorten a hole just because worse than average golfers can't reach it in two. There is a reason why it is number 1 on the card.

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 04:03 PM


15 - leave the trees...just set up risk / reward for trying to cut the corner

Most 18+ markers aren't that capable of playing the shot currently needed to take on the corner (unless they run it through the trees/rough on the inside corner. Knock a couple of trees down to tempt (read "sucker") and bunker the corner to catch the runners. If they fcuk up then they have a 90-100 metre bunker shot to the green.

smile.gif



#20 mrdenn1s

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:11 AM

QUOTE: Fyirippu @ Dec 13 2006, 04:07 PM


Why shorten a hole just because worse than average golfers can't reach it in two. There is a reason why it is number 1 on the card.

smile.gif

agree to a point...but some discussion points are:
1) 95% of the time, it plays into a southerly...so even 3 hanicappers have to hit Driver , 3 wood
2) Makes the hole much more interesting and challeging if it is not a crash and bash hole
3) THe bunkering around the green is superb...but wasted. So many players bail out and play it as a par 5. Bring them into play!!



#21 Tinsworth

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:30 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 04:11 PM


agree to a point...but some discussion points are:
1) 95% of the time, it plays into a southerly...so even 3 hanicappers have to hit Driver , 3 wood
2) Makes the hole much more interesting and challeging if it is not a crash and bash hole
3) THe bunkering around the green is superb...but wasted. So many players bail out and play it as a par 5. Bring them into play!!

Edit 4:45pm (damn typos)

It's a 413 metre par 4

1) A 3 marker still gets a shot on 14.
2) I would suggest it tests out the longer bats in the bag. There are little enough chances for that elsewhere and that is the beauty of the hole.
3) They play it as a par 5 because unless they are a 1-marker or better, their personal par on the 14th is five. I would say just as many golfers there run their ball into either the front RH pot or pull it into the LHS pot as there

are golfers that lay it up

. If your drive crests the hill then you are no more than 130 out with your second into a back to front sloping green.

Here's your shot from the crest of the hill.

IPB Image



#22 N & G Ablett

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:32 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 04:11 PM


agree to a point...but some discussion points are:
1) 95% of the time, it plays into a southerly...so even 3 hanicappers have to hit Driver , 3 wood
2) Makes the hole much more interesting and challeging if it is not a crash and bash hole
3) THe bunkering around the green is superb...but wasted. So many players bail out and play it as a par 5. Bring them into play!!

Sounds like a classic "half par" hole i.e (4.5)... I think there was some old bloke who designed a couple of courses with this philosphy, the rumor is he went OK.



#23 N & G Ablett

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:47 AM

QUOTE: Fyirippu @ Dec 13 2006, 04:30 PM


It's a 413 metre par 4

1) A 3 marker still gets a shot on 14.
2) I would suggest it tests out the longer bats in the bag. There are little enough chances for that elsewhere and that is the beauty of the hole.
3) They play it as a par 5 because unless they are a 1-marker or better, their personal par on the 14th is five. I would say just as many golfers there run their ball into either the front RH pot or pull it into the LHS pot as there are they lay it up. If your drive crests the hill then you are no more than 130 out with your second into a back to front sloping green.

Here's your shot from the crest of the hill.

IPB Image

Thanks for the photo... why would you want a bunker on the RHS drive???? If anything you want one on the left to get people hitting away from the 15th tee and into the safer, but with a tougher shot, RHS. (I am of course ingnoring the walk issue here.. can remember a few close calls in my day!)

Mrdenn1s,

Regarding the cnr on 15... how are you increasing the risk reward by leaving the trees and adding bunkers??



#24 mrdenn1s

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 02:57 AM

The trees on 15 only come into play if you are a really short hitter...eg 180m drive max. Most people with driver fly past the corner ..maybe 220m carry. Put a trap so shorter hitters must go right, and longer iron hitters must be accurate

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 04:47 PM


Thanks for the photo... why would you want a bunker on the RHS drive???? If anything you want one on the left to get people hitting away from the 15th tee and into the safer, but with a tougher shot, RHS. (I am of course ingnoring the walk issue here.. can remember a few close calls in my day!)


You want to reward people for taking the correct line down the LHS. Harder to keep the ball there as the hole slopes to the right. Bunker the right to catch the bad shot. Bunker on left is catching the good shot. THen approach shots to the green are from the LHS, and hit AWAY from the 15th tee



#25 Tinsworth

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 03:04 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 04:55 PM


The trees on 15 only come into play if you are a really short hitter...eg 180m drive max. Most people with driver fly past the corner ..maybe 220m carry. Put a trap so shorter hitters must go right, and longer iron hitters must be accurate

You would still need some reward otherwise you are simply dictating how the hole should be played. If you drop a couple of the trees on the inside then you might encourage a couple of the middle hitters to take it on

If the shorter hitter is forced right then their approach is going to be with a longer club (2,3 or even 4 clubs) which will make it far more difficult as the green is very well bunkered to the front and sides. If the pin is cut back then a close finishing pitch/chip from the rear is almost impossible as the green slopes noticabley back to front.



#26 mrdenn1s

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE: Fyirippu @ Dec 13 2006, 05:04 PM


You would still need some reward otherwise you are simply dictating how the hole should be played. If you drop a couple of the trees on the inside then you might encourage a couple of the middle hitters to take it on

If the shorter hitter is forced right then their approach is going to be with a longer club (2,3 or even 4 clubs) which will make it far more difficult as the green is very well bunkered to the front and sides. If the pin is cut back then a close finishing pitch/chip from the rear is almost impossible as the green slopes noticabley back to front.

Becomes a ripper hole then! Bring it on smile.gif



#27 N & G Ablett

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 04:57 PM


The trees on 15 only come into play if you are a really short hitter...eg 180m drive max. Most people with driver fly past the corner ..maybe 220m carry. Put a trap so shorter hitters must go right, and longer iron hitters must be accurate
You want to reward people for taking the correct line down the LHS. Harder to keep the ball there as the hole slopes to the right. Bunker the right to catch the bad shot. Bunker on left is catching the good shot. THen approach shots to the green are from the LHS, and hit AWAY from the 15th tee

Lets not confuse "Good Shot" with "Good Strategy". If the LHS is the place to come from, then shouldn't there be some element of risk / reward invloved? You don't need a bunker on the RHS because the player is already disadvantaged by the poor line into the green. The drives at Victoria on holes 2, 3 and 12 highlight my point well.



#28 mrdenn1s

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 03:09 AM

QUOTE: N & G Ablett @ Dec 13 2006, 05:05 PM


Lets not confuse "Good Shot" with "Good Strategy". If the LHS is the place to come from, then shouldn't there be some element of risk / reward invloved? You don't need a bunker on the RHS because the player is already disadvantaged by the poor line into the green. The drives at Victoria on holes 2, 3 and 12 highlight my point well.

If the hole stays at 413 into a southerly breeze, then no bunkers needed. Already hard enough

However, if shortened like i suggest by 30m, then bunkers can comeinto play off the tee to catch a bad shot.



#29 Tinsworth

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 03:10 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 05:09 PM


If the hole stays at 413 into a southerly breeze, then no bunkers needed. Already hard enough

However, if shortened like i suggest by 30m, then bunkers can comeinto play off the tee to catch a bad shot.

But isn't that simply shortening a solid hole purely to decorate it?

huh.gif



#30 N & G Ablett

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 03:11 AM

QUOTE: mrdenn1s @ Dec 13 2006, 05:05 PM


Becomes a ripper hole then! Bring it on smile.gif

No it doesn't.. becomes a boring piece of ****. There are more than enough world class short par 4's not 10 mins from Southern which would be a good start for any possible changes to be modelled on.

Options, options and more options make golf holes interesting.






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