Topic: Golf Instruction / Serious question - Swing Advice

Relating how to play the game in words is difficult, and is often further compromised by focusing solely on the mechanics of the swing. Ask for advice on a free forum and you’re going to get it. The bottom line is to test it, and if it works keep doing it—if it doesn’t work dump it. There are a multitude of plays on any given shot, and sometimes the best play isn’t the most technically correct.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Longish downhill putts

One thing I try to do …….. is to imagine them as a much shorter putt, on a flat green.

With downhill putts I reckon we can sometimes either smash them way past, or try to trickle them the whole way and in doing so, go way too easy on them.

If I’ve got a 40 foot downhill putt …….... I first try to work out how much distance the slope will add to the putt.

If I figure that the downslope will probably add another 10 feet to the putt, then I will try to hit a solid putt …….. to the 30 foot mark.

This makes the actual putt shorter for me in my mind, and in hitting it confidently and firmly to the “shorter” distance, it will generally hold it’s line better.

Once it gets to the 30 foot mark, then it will naturally slow slightly, and gravity can take it the rest of the way on down towards the hole.

It seems to work pretty well too, and I’ve sunk a fair few long downhillers, just by playing them firmly to the much shorter target.

Just a slightly different way to look at them ……..

http://www.golflink.com.au/...
2012 Rotary Ambrose Champions “All Star Team” Member.
LD Champion – Growling Bog ’11, A Grade WV ’12, Bendigo ’12.
Albatross – 3rd hole Par 5 Beaconhills 19-11-2012 3W-6 iron.

+1…!

Topic: Golf Instruction / Style over substance? The moment of truth

Golfsavvy,
I agree although coaches need to take accountability for their own failures. All they are doing is blaming technology for their own failures.
TM as an example is a great tool to help people understand their ball flight laws to shape the ball. Instead some coaches starts trying to change their path etc, what on earth for. They just miss used the purpose of the technology. It’s a great guide to help people understand what they need to do to moved the ball suited to their swing style. Nothing more. This is a failure on the coaches behalf.

Even with our technology we have had to diversify to generating on range PST programs. So the coaches could do this on the range and help the golfer translate their patterns into their swing.

In the past some weren’t doing their job, they would give their clients the PST and failed to help them integrate this into their swings. The golfer would do the drills wrong etc they didn’t know how to intergrate into their swing either.
Here they are out on the golf course trying to think mechanical about the movement and wonder why they couldn’t play or didn’t get better. They were in mechanical mode not in playing the game mode.
Their coach also failed them is teaching them not to think out there and how to adapt to the new patterns on the course and play with them. You train this doing block practice.
They also failed to teach them how to play with these new patterns they have developed on the course.

However I am talking about a minority, the majority of coaches who did follow procedures have a really great success using our technology.

In my experience the coaches who are very successful cover all bases, they make sure what ever they are doing with their students they ensure they can translate it onto the golf course. They go out onto the golf course and teach them how to play with what ever it is they are learning and also train them how to play the game

But the whole industry is to blame and need to take accountability the whole industry has lost sight of the fact the ONLY reason people come to them is people want to play better golf. What does that mean they want to shoot lower scores.

scott@zenolink.com">scott@zenolink.com

http://www.facebook.com/zen…

Core Health first 3D gym in the world. 1 Golf Links Road, Frankston South

Great points Zen. Many teachers work solely on the golf swing. They build it, correct it, and re-correct it, often never seeing the player under true playing conditions. The implicit message from the industry is that every shot must be straight and struck solidly, and technology is geared toward that premise—which, as I said before, is about swinging a club but isn’t a method of playing golf.

It’s interesting that some pros think most players are not ready to learn to curve the ball, the primary reason often that they don’t know how to hit it straight to begin with. Of course, the corollary is that they already know how to curve it in at least one direction… I’ve thought for some time that if you didn’t know how to curve it in both directions then how would you know what to fix to hit it straight?

Topic: Golf Instruction / Style over substance? The moment of truth

Headpro,
This is very true, even with what we do, I found even though we improved golfers, there was a good proportion whose handicaps didn’t go down. This eluded me until I went for a game with them to discover they didn’t know how to play the game. I realised I had to out source to things like aimpoint, GPS with Bob and encourage clients to get playing lessons.

Further more they didn’t know how to practice properly, they were stuck in maintenance mode always working on swing, instead of doing block practice where you spend 1/4 time on maintenance and the other 3/4’s of their time working on different shots and short game etc.

You are 100% right it’s a really problematic issues in the golfing world.
Question is how do we change this?

scott@zenolink.com">scott@zenolink.com

http://www.facebook.com/zen…

Core Health first 3D gym in the world. 1 Golf Links Road, Frankston South

It can’t be changed quickly, but it is slowly changing. I am finding a bit of a ‘backlash’ to technology among teaching pros in the US. It’s good for what it’s good for, but it’s not the be-all end-all that some make it out to be. You can see data, compare it to movements, make corrections, work on a pre-shot routine and concentrate, but in many ways teaching aids and techniques are missing a link to what actually happens on the course.

You can have perfect technique as a batsman but still fail due to the skill of the bowler (did I get the terms right?).

Topic: Golf Instruction / Lifting left foot in backswing

Bobby Jones did, Sam Snead did, Ben Hogan rolled it a little. Jack Nicklaus did. Tiger doesn’t. It all depends on your flexibility and rhythm. No rule here.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Style over substance? The moment of truth

Please don’t take this the wrong way…I don’t suggest that any of these are bad: Whether it’s TGM, Stack n Tilt, Ballard’s ‘connection’, or Clampett’s 5 dynamics (insert your favorite here), each is a swing technique. Each will produce certain results, but none addresses the issue of ‘how to play golf’. Each will predictably succeed under certain circumstances, and each will predictably fail under certain circumstances. We should not attribute how to play the game solely to a swing technique.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Style over substance? The moment of truth

I’ve been teaching impact-based learning for years… The problem is the intent to teach a fool-proof swing from a model has failed the player. Golf pros have failed at doing this—in terms of driving people from the game, though some perhaps not because they’re making a living. It’s the difference between teaching a swing and teaching how to play the game. The majority of the industry has defaulted into the former. Clampett’s program is pretty good, but I think he still misses the mark.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Kiwi's AimPoint review

Interesting comments guys! I learned Aimpoint about 3 years ago and it is very valuable—and the more of the process you do the more valuable it is. My take on it is that it gives you all of the tools for success, but without charting the greens and pin placements ahead of time there is much that may not be applicable on a given day. You get out of it what you put in. I mapped the greens at Tetherow not long after and it was very helpful in the long run.

So Kiwi, how much of it are you using on a daily basis, and how far along are you—greens mapped, etc? And stepping back a notch, have you been fitted for alignment and loft in your putter?

Topic: Golf Instruction / Challenge a Pro

I’m still around Allege—if you might have included me in that group… Have been busy with interviews for a new job and have been presenting G P S to prospective professionals in my region. I have 8 new pros interested in G P S Player’s Academies, and am beginning to organize my coming summer (still potential for snow around here…)

I am also working on a couple of new products for G P S, at least one of which I will be able to share—hopefully soon!

The golf swing has been broken into so many parts that it’s often difficult for some to get back to the real aspects of playing the game… I hope to continue to remedy that…....

Topic: Golf Instruction / looking for a coach (Melb SE)

Paul Buchanan or Ben Hood at Southern are top notch as well.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Reading break

First and foremost, if you’re playing the same course a lot, you shouldn’t have many read problems. A mini-version of Aimpoint is to map the ‘straight’ putts after your play of the hole. There are general ‘cupping’ areas and maps that the crew uses, so after you play the hole, tap a ball downhill away from the cup to get the position of the uphill straight putt, and map it. Depending on how complicated the cup rotation is, after about 6 rounds you should know the ‘fall line’ of every cupping area. Based on where your ball is in relation to the fall line, you will have an immediate idea of the break within about 15 feet of the hole.

This is a big key in gaining information that your fellow competitors don’t have.

With that type of knowledge, it will help you visualize fall lines and breaks on other courses you don’t have mapped.

The normal method of reading from behind the ball places you the farthest away from the most important part of the putt. I always recommend reading your putts from about 6 – 8 feet behind the hole, especially noting the direction from which the ball will best drop in the hole. This effectively changes the ‘center’ of the hole from straight on. This has been the single best ‘reading’ tip I ever received, and I got it from a pro about 45 years ago.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Steak Grip

I’m guessing your grips are bigger than mine, but mine are +3 wraps left hand, +6 right hand, which reduces the taper. Took me a long time to get them right, and now I have no idea what my grip tension is. It has allowed me to get more agressive. (Might even go bigger, we’ll see.)

The tennis wraps for testing grip size is a great idea. As for pizza and steak, I’ll opt for the steak as I’ve had too much pizza lately. :)

One of the best grip tips I ever heard was to grip a 48” ruler, flat side to target. Thumbs will oppose, and the ruler ‘plane’ will place the rest of your hands in a good starting position. Then minor adjustments are ok.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Brisbane / Gold Coast Lessons

Grant Garrison.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Lessons in West Sydney

Scott is still at Moore Park, I think. I would also recommend Jeff Mansfield and Dave Reckless with Absolute Golf, www.absolutegolf.com.au. Great teachers, clubfitters, and do a lot of on-course work.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Steve Stricker's swing

Stricker’s swing is very repeatable, and one I think the industry may be starting to embrace. No extra moving parts, nothing done to excess. What it does is to reduce some variances in ball flight. Reduced use of the wrists, making them work more with the core rotation. The downside is that it is less powerful. But, what do you want, to hit it straighter or farther?

Sometimes I recommend a restricted version of his swing, then slowly loosening up until you get the flight you want.

I see elements of his swing in different players, perhaps even more in some European players.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Swing vs Hit part 2

Tango—congrats on your swing revelations! Your comments about ‘waiting at the top and letting my hands drop in the slot’ mean to me that you’ve found a way to put your swing not only on the right path, but on the right swing plane… Goodonya!

Topic: Golf Instruction / Thanks

And fourthly, I’m just upping my post count…

Topic: Golf Instruction / Thanks

Boy, I’m off for a day or 2 and look what’s happened to you all…!

My advice is to always consider the source, the motive, and the fact that many are anonymous. What would the debate be in a room full of iseekers? An annual dinner party… ;)

Topic: Golf Instruction / The mind has it.

Stink—a very good description of your performance…

Visualization is great, but it’s just the beginning part of the process. For me it’s very similar to your rehearsal, dress rehearsal, performance explanation. Visualize, relate to movements, rehearse, perform.

But, it’s not about body parts—it’s about sequential movements based on the visualized performance. Match the entire sequential movement to the intended flight. Emphasize one body part and there had best be an important relation to an intended flight.

Bobsledders and luge riders do something similar before riding a track by going through the track in their minds, combined with a physical ‘rehearsal’. The difference is that they go through the entire track.

Note the result as feedback and move on.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Pro v Amateur Trajectory

... There’s a difference between learning a golf swing and playing golf. Corey Pavin proves the point…

Pavin was able to strike the ball very consistently and able to hit far enough to play effectively on quite hard courses.

Surely by any sensible definition that means he had a technically sound golf swing and at some stage had learned to strike the ball reliably.

The artist formerly known as Hermit from Hermit Park.
Slightly wounded and living in Forest Gardens near Cairns.

On the other hand, a sensible definition might be that Pavin’s swing might not be technically sound because his movements and ball flight are not being taught by top teachers.

I suppose we can spin it any way we want to for the sake of argument. But I would offer that Pavin’s ability to compete despite his diminutive size and abilities means that perhaps he had playing knowledge that other pros don’t have. Add what he knows to that of a great ball striker and perhaps you have Tiger of 2000…

Topic: Golf Instruction / Pro v Amateur Trajectory

I’ve had exposure to both TPI and Zenolink, and I would definitely lean toward Zenolink. In relation to how you deliver the club, it has to do with technique, sequence, strength, and balance. I’ve found what I learned from Zenolink and Zen to be more valuable than what I learned from TPI. But, if you can do both, that’s good too.

Bob Duncan, PGA Life Member
Master Clubfitter DP.60

Click here for my new ebook on Amazon

Surely good golf coaches in the past knew how to make all this happen without science. Like a lot of things in life now is the technology taking away from the truly skilled coach, kind of like in modern golf equipment etc ?

It’s a training program. As I said earlier, it’s a discipline that supports the swing. A skilled coach is better with Zenolink. I am better as a coach by knowing and personally exercising with Zenolink.

There’s also an implicit assumption in the industry that a technically sound golf swing can conquer all. Not true. There’s a difference between learning a golf swing and playing golf. Corey Pavin proves the point. Sure, Tiger had a better swing and won more tournaments, and had better physical gifts. But at some point you have to turn your effort toward playing the game.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Pro v Amateur Trajectory

I’ve had exposure to both TPI and Zenolink, and I would definitely lean toward Zenolink. In relation to how you deliver the club, it has to do with technique, sequence, strength, and balance. I’ve found what I learned from Zenolink and Zen to be more valuable than what I learned from TPI. But, if you can do both, that’s good too.

Topic: Golf Instruction / Pro v Amateur Trajectory

There’s no bigger skeptic out there than me. I’ve tried every tip I’ve ever heard just to see what it does. I was pretty skeptical about Zenolink, until I had a session with Zen. And what I found out is it’s pretty darn good stuff.

Zenolink is one discipline among many. Zen wrote a good evaluation of my program, G P S. It’s another discipline. We have a mutual respect because we have tried each other’s program and we found they are effective.

TGM is another discipline, and it works. Dart has a great working knowledge of it. It’s very valuable and effective.

It’s like what we say in America—voting here is optional, and so if you don’t vote then you don’t get to complain. If you vote, you get to debate. You shouldn’t knock it if you haven’t tried it…

Topic: Golf Instruction / Pro v Amateur Trajectory

A little tolerance goes a long way in these forums. I’ve learned some good things from both Trackman and Zen. But, it’s all in the interpretation and application. If I can’t use the information relatively quickly and effectively, then I can’t use it.

I’ve found that launch monitors can help in a macro way, but can be interpreted in a micro way. The funny thing is how they are interpreted on the range vs. on the golf course with different conditions. They provide a baseline from which to work, but because of conditions the results cannot be completely reproduced on the course.

Zen’s approach is a macro method, and can sometimes be interpreted in a micro way. Once I understood and tested a few of his tenants, I found that they were valuable and effective.

When you apply different disciplines, there are bound to be conflicts or discrepancies.

From my perspective, the GAME of golf is much more macro than micro. Just when you think you’ve got it on the range, you take it to a course on which it cannot perform in exactly the same manner. We can micro-analyze your swing and your ball flight, but the game is about how it is applied.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Topic: Golf Instruction / Abe Mitchell

Abe Mitchell 1
Abe Mitchell 2

An official iseekgolf.com teaching panelist

Golf Industry Central

Natty dresser! Maybe Stinkler will dress this way for the next iseek comp…

He appears to be a ‘masher’ or a ‘squasher’... Pretty efficient. All of the energy is expended at impact. Not much spine tilt, especially in the finish.

Kind of a bigger version of Stan Utley’s chipping technique. Doubt he was a high ball hitter… probably had quite a bit of run on his drives.