Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC,

I am so bummed to hear of your accident. It happened to me about 6 years ago, only it was my right elbow. You are lucky it was the left…sort of.

I hope you recover quickly.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Hogan used extensor action, any golfer that has a straight left arm
at the top is using extensor action. The right arm keeps the left arm straight. TGM suggests applying extensor action at address. This is not mandatory, but I think a good idea. Hogan applied his extensor action on the way back… and that extensor action was pushed through past impact. As tight as Hogan was at the top, and as straight his left arm was, I can assure you he felt a ton of extensor action in his swing.

Once the left arm reaches about 45 degrees to the shoulder line,
it will bend unless extensor action is applied.

There is a duel purpose here, to keep the radius consistent,
and extended for maximum radius.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

lagpressure,

How do you know that Hogan used extensor action?

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Oh no! KOC on all our behalf I wish you the fastest and least painful recovery. Keep the mind active and remember the San Mig can be lifted with a right forearm fanning motion without the lefts help.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Dear all,

Hogan was sent to hospital due to a car accident…KOC, who is a big fan of Hogan, was sent to hospital due to a fall down accident. My left elbow bone was broken! I need to undergo a surgery within one week. I am very sad and I am afraid I can’t hit balls in my old occasionally flush stroking ability…but of course I wish I could get a break through like Hogan when he returned to the field. Enjoy your every golf game!

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

The two things that I have seen really throw people off are his “spinning out” with the hips demonstration, and his understanding of the swing plane. Both of these things are not what he does.. but I am also quite sure that this is how if may have FELT to him. He was so coiled up at the top with such extreme extensor action, huge shoulder rotation, and minimal hand travel, that it probably felt to him that he couldn’t turn his hips too fast on the downswing. Most golfers could benefit from a much more delayed hip action, being what Hogan did, not what he demonstrated…

His pictures of “The Plane” are just wrong.. that is not what the plane does, nor is this what his plane did.. Again I believe that he FELT that his swing was a single flat plane that he swung on, but he did not actually do this. His swing plane was very flat, but it still shifted from “elbow plane” to just under “shoulder plane”. Only swings from 9 O clock to 3 O clock can stay on a single plane with any real practicality.

I knew a really good player years ago that got so obsessed with Hogan’s plane he built a huge swing plane in his garage out of plywood, and tried to swing on that thing, and it just ruined his game .. why? because that is NOT what the swing plane does.. but it is a nice description of what the plane might feel like.. to Hogan..

The great thing about TGM is that is tells you fact, and what the realities are of the golf swing.. it removes the smoke, the mirrors, the perceptions, and gives the player the opportunity to learn their feel from proper mechanics. Hogan’s swing is very sound in TGM, he worked hard to perfect it, it repeated well, and he struck the ball as well as anyone ever has. It’s still a high profile model swing 50 years later..

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

There is no “mystery here,

Hogan had a great hip turn via the right leg straightening on the way back, his shoulder rotation was also extraordinary. His hands
traveling was minimal. It’s like his shoulders turn to 12 or 1 o clock, but his hands only get to 10 o clock. To do this his hands would feel as if they are only going to 9 o clock.

His body (torso) could really make a big move and it would take some time load the #4 pressure point on the way down, and compress it against his ribcage… this is what gives that “look”
of fluidity in the change of direction.

This stuff of Hogan is not easy to do.. it’s a very athletic move..
getting your shoulders to turn that far, have the hands not go back so far, but at the same time apply a huge amount of extensor action on the left arm is really great stuff.. his body could really rotate a lot just to catch up to his hands…

You have to be careful reading Hogan… what he felt and what he did are often very different.. I think you are best to look at his swing and then you can think about what he said…

If you have all his pieces in place then it does make sense but if you don’t …you can really end up going down the wrong path.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC – great vision – thanks for the effort..

This may sound stupid but did I notice (you guys may have already discussed this and I missed it) that both Ben Hogan and especially Moe started their hip movement before they finished their back swing?

Political Correctness is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media,which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Ditty,

Sorry for butting in but this is simply an illusion.

The start of the downswing as coincidental with lag loading still being applied on the club shaft/head at transition.
This gives the illusion of the club still going back whilst the players are actually moving into their down swings.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC
excellent stuff

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Ditty,
the hips do start first, but hogan was unique, this is what worked for hogan which doesn’t mean will work for you or me.
use the same sequence on the downswing and work out your own rhythm on timing.
You can pause at the top if you like

Thanks Bio – I hit the top and then push my right knee toward the ball which starts my hips turn etc.. don’t know how right it is but works okay at the moment – not sure how I’ll go as I get deeper into the yellow study manual…. I expect to get worse before I get better :-)

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Ditty,
the hips do start first, but hogan was unique, this is what worked for hogan which doesn’t mean will work for you or me.
use the same sequence on the downswing and work out your own rhythm on timing.
You can pause at the top if you like

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Ditty,
the hips do start first, but hogan was unique, this is what worked for hogan which doesn’t mean will work for you or me.
use the same sequence on the downswing and work out your own rhythm on timing.
You can pause at the top if you like

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC – great vision – thanks for the effort..

This may sound stupid but did I notice (you guys may have already discussed this and I missed it) that both Ben Hogan and especially Moe started their hip movement before they finished their back swing?

Political Correctness is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media,which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

“The downswing is said to start at the top of the swing, but that is not correct as there is no final top of the swing position. By the time the club reaches what is often referred to as the top of the swing, the downswing has really started.” – Ben Hogan wrote in Power Golf

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC
It is simply brilliant and as high as I could expect from my Favourite on UTube ;-)
It is funny to notice what we can learn from rear sights of swings.
Hogan (2’17) Moe (2’44) early hip slide: doesn’t this look like the “missing link ?
On the other hand I find “Young Moe” (3’51-4’15) iron swing very conventionnal. He has made his udge collection of records (59 three times, 17 holes in one, plenty of courses recods ) with this swing.
Thank you again for the show (good music too…)

I’m french, but I treat myself…

Let’s see what VJ said regarding how he “discover” the missing link:-

Q: When did you first discover the concept of the missing puzzle piece in Hogan’s swing?

A: I began downloading massive amounts of Hogan footage some 5 years ago, Five Lessons has always been a part of my bedside reading library. I would read, think, read, think and attempt to make sense of it. One afternoon I saw something I could not imagine. It was a rear view image of Hogan in black and white (hitting) with a short iron. The image made it all click. The turning of the hips to start the downswing,the extra spike ( on right shoe), the stored elastic strip;all the pieces fell into place.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

A_B,

OK…give me some times

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC – great vision – thanks for the effort..

This may sound stupid but did I notice (you guys may have already discussed this and I missed it) that both Ben Hogan and especially Moe started their hip movement before they finished their back swing?

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC

That youtube presentation is absolutely brilliant!! The pictures truly tell 1000s of words!! Awesome technology you possess!!

Any chance you could do something similar for me with Long Drivers and Power Golfers?? Would really assist me in my visualisations for tour preparations!!

Just some possible name suggestions for you:

LD: Sadlowski, Zuback, Dobbyn, Allan McDougall

LD old school: Evan “Big Cat” Williams

Traditional Golf: Snead, Woods, Daly, Norman (circa 1980’s)

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC
It is simply brilliant and as high as I could expect from my Favourite on UTube ;-)
It is funny to notice what we can learn from rear sights of swings.
Hogan (2’17) Moe (2’44) early hip slide: doesn’t this look like the “missing link ?
On the other hand I find “Young Moe” (3’51-4’15) iron swing very conventionnal. He has made his udge collection of records (59 three times, 17 holes in one, plenty of courses recods ) with this swing.
Thank you again for the show (good music too…)

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Super collection there KOC. Thanks for the great share.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

First of all, sorry for this mystery and lengthy post or just enjoy the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7eIVD8OZAE

It has been a long time since I started this thread…reading, studying, incubating and experimenting for half a year. I also read lots of Hogan experts regarding their believes

Until now, it came to my conclusion and my swinging procedure.

Here is the direct quote from Hogan book:-

“The first really important change I effected was the action of my left knee. Mine used to shoot straight out when I took the club back. Ed Stewart’s knee, I noticed, broke in nicely to the right. I practiced correcting my knee action on the lawn at home until there was no lawn left.”

“ACTUALLY, THE HANDS START THE CLUBHEAD BACK A SPLIT SECOND BEFORE THE ARMS START BACK”…shoulders, hips, knee and feet (the extra spikes in his shoes which he did not mention in his books.)

What does that mean to me? The Hands command the pivot and achieving the loading into right foot as well as the stretching of the “elastic strip”.

“THE CORRECT STANCE ACTS AS A PERFECT AUTOMATIC GOVERNOR ON THE AMOUNT OF HIP TURN THE GOLFER CAN TAKE (AND SHOULD TAKE) ON THE BACKSWING. It allows the hips to be rotated as far around as is advisable…but it prevents them from being rotated too far around.”

“THE HIPS INITIATE THE DOWNSWING…. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT”

If the left knee was not pulled inward, how could the elastic strip stretched? As we can see from the Hogan and Moe swing clip I made, pay attention to their left foot, left knee, left hip move to support the lateral and rotary force and automatically swallow the downswing plane and avoiding the immediate centrifugal fly out of the club.

What does that mean to me again? The Pivot commands the hands to move last and achieving what Hogan said “WHEN THE GOLFER IS ON THIS CORRECT DOWNSWING PLANE, HE HAS TO HIT FROM THE INSIDE OUT”.

Finally, I lately preach the idea of Chinese ancient principle “Yin Yang”

Yin attracts yang; yang attracts yin. Yang repels yang; yin repels yin. No phenomenon is completely, absolutely yang, or completely, absolutely yin. All phenomena are permeated with both yin and yang tendencies. In brief, Yin is the more passive, quite, gentle, falling, downwards, contraction, flat, inward factor. Yang is the more active, expanding, round, outward, upwards factor. It is all about balancing and unifying opposites principle. Just like my crazy thinking of hands command pivot and then pivot command hands.

Hands first (Yang) hips follows (yin); Hip start (yang) and hands follow (yin)

Anyway, the biggest advantage in using this approaching is that I won’t take side. It also shares the core value of the TGM book, physic, geometry, variations, samenesses, and finally open up my mind for all. In Chinese terms…that is getting through the conception vessel and governor vessel.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Yes Sir! What is your opinion of the MAN’s basic motion? What is the knee bent angle, big or small?

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

The reason why I mentioned Ed Stewart is that Hogan told us in the 5 lessons book how Ed Stewart’s left knee bent and Mr. Hogan referred that as a huge thing for building his golf swing. Hogan referred his left knee was too straight before that.

When I look at 7-16 G.O.L.F. regarding knee action and how Hogan did, I can see why the pivot of the MAN looked so different and so fast. Some experts refer the move as “starts the downswing before the backswing completed.” As for G.O.L.F., rotational force making the back; up and in, and of course lag loading, lateral move avoids the immediate throw out and then wreck…

For me, I never bent that much and I am working a bit on that too. The result was impressive as I felt particularly balance and motionless Head.

One more thing, some Mike Austin teachers said that the back swing is initialed by the left knee. I think, just I think, it carries some truth in that – from the ground up!

I am still reading and watching Hogan stuffs, come back later!

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

KOC I think The Dart is asking what important lesson you might have spotted from all this magic research that others can work into their G.O.L.F.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Dear Paul,

You really put pressure on me saying that! I know that you know Hogan more than anyone out there. So, your interest will be great, but we don’t talk money..haha

Come back later.

Topic: Ben Hogan New (or old) thought

Lately, I have collected almost all of the Ben Hogan’s stuff:

Ben Hogan – A Hard Case from Texas;
The Ben Hogan Collection;
Hogan vs Sam Snead;
The Swing DVD by Jim Mclean and the Pursuit DVD;
TGC Academy live show featuring Ben;
Youtube Magic golf swing; (Now disappeared)
Hogan’s books and other authors writing on Hogan books including the latest one from V.J.

With software that can capture over 100 pictures from a golf swing video, I broke down four directions of Hogan’s swing. I also divided into hook swing, fade swing and later on swings.

I am not talking about his grip, his right knee, his change of direction. I want to mention a person here first: Ed Stewart.