Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

For those who have not worked this out the main people moderating this site are TGMers and has been for years. This is a TGM principled based forum. So far nobody has come up with anything that falls outside the book, so we cater for much of what goes on. If it falls outside the boarders then it can be kicked around elsewhere.

So do F1 drivers fix their own cars? Hell no. Can they converse with their mechanics and support crew? A good driver can. How may ex-tour pro’s coach? Few because they can hit the ball but not communicate how they do it. How many retired sporting greats end up coaching national teams or high level performers. Few.

If people wish to use terms that have different meanings and interpretations of what is mean then Dart and I will always ask to keep the terminology meaning the same thing. In this thread hitting and swinging have been bastardised to the confusion of too many. Indeed its called hitting in this thread yet is a CF pivot controlled action, swinging, elsewhere that ISGers have found.

Lets look a few claims:

Pivot Stall being promoted in TGM for hitters is frankly laughable.

The unhooking or PP#4 is also totally misinterpreted.

Right arm thrust vs use of #2 and #3 to keep shaft flex shows a total misunderstanding between what is working the #2 (wrist cock and roll).

Post impact speed is key to TGM all the way through to Both Arms Straight and up the Finish Swivel procedure, not AT the ball.

Golf is a power game, that is pure TGM, delivered On Plane. Why is that geometry before physics? They go together.

A FLW will happen if forces do not suffer from Quitting, Steering, Bobbing and Swaying. Hardly a vapour trail there.

For those who have read all this thread you will have seen these comments before.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Read above to clarify my problem with your post.

Reread and still don’t see your point.

To turn your own point back to you, until you go through Lag’s process you cannot say it’s great. You’ve got one module done and some hearsay.

Quote me whare I said it was great.

I never said you criticized Darts methodology.

So is that an apology?

What you did criticize was his perspective on how to teach the average person, and until you are out there trying to get Joe or Joanne Blog to hit the ball better it’s difficult to hear you criticize the perspective of someone who does it very well.

No I didn’t. Quote me where I criticised his perspective on how to teach the average person.

I’m not saying Lag’s modules are or are not great, I’ve never done them.

Exactly.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

This is the very pissing contest that I have no interest in. I know where I stand. Good luck to you.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I am not sure how I get the blame BOM? I suggested if I was Lag I wouldn’t be bothered listening to all the back talk.. I don’t make his decisions for him why he hasn’t added anything of late. I know why and it isn’t my doing…so it is not up to me to explain.
there are contentious points with everything… Lag has improved hacks, 20 handicappers and single markers and is now helping pros boost their game. He covers the spectrum and EVERYONE is seeing a startling improvement.
There are no quick fixes in the program. It takes work and diligence- as it should. The beauty about Lag’s teaching is it is ALWAYS monitored. Not like the normal let me have a lesson and run off into the dark hole of practice and playing and totally get lost again on my own accord. Regular lessons are all about trying to stick a club somewhere and dump a wrist at the ball and watch your head movement and finish on your toe..total generic waste of time advice
Unless you have done Lag’s program- some have done 1 module- some have done 4…I know of the first 6 modules now…you won’t get any understanding of it and really have no right to criticize. Lag played with a TGM background- he knows all that stuff.He also knows parts were missing. Just like Clampett dropped off like a hot potato when his game couldn’t continue to hold up when crunch time came.
Reading Lag’s thoughts on these pages is only a quick insight of his beliefs. The module work is the crux of it all ….and it IS working with players of all standards….WHY?.....because Lag has it figured out. The swing is built in an order that makes sense.
So unless anyone goes through the system, even a part of it, they don’t get it.
The muscles learn to know and the ball becomes incidental……......
It is grade A teaching.You can have your Leadbetters and your Butch’s and McLean’s and Blake’s and whomever you want to name. They have NOTHING on what Lag is teaching and how easy the swing starts to evolve from doing it.
If you want to try for your quick fix, then go elsewhere…but if you are serious and want to be as good as you can be, there really is nothing that can touch what Lag is talking about.
I have just about seen it all from the golfer’s perspective and there is nothing better. I have said it a million times.. Lag ISthe smartest man I have ever met with regards to the swing …nathsayers..be gone!!

“Now I know why Tigers eat their young”

It initially seemed like you were calling for an end to it when you said that all the bickering should call an end to the thread- it seemed negative to me in the midst of a strong debate. Upon reflection, as I stated in my later post, I think I get why he would move on. So I do apologize, I may have misinterpreted you. To clarify, I never said a thing against Lag, only against the criticism of Dart- he was taking a lot of crap, and I’m sure he’s more than capable of sticking up for himself, but I wanted to add my 2 cents….

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

See this is where communication falls down. I’m sure Guru has huge respect for SM’s capabilities, his comments suggested nothing else. Correct me if I’m wrong but SM only recently got the yellow book and an insight into TGM right? I think Guru sent the book? Of course SM managed to “hit the ball fairly crisp” before that too. This is about an understanding of approaches and ideas, not about SM’s game. HK devised his book from great golfers, they were first. Doesn’t mean the book is not valuable if you can get there without it.

I have loved this thread, found Lags ideas interesting and the responses for and against interesting too. I don’t know how well he or his teaching is known by Dart and Guru and what politics are present, but all I can see here are points of view presented in a forum. I see no blame or fault, just as Lag has put forward his case, so have others.

It should be noted that a teacher does not need to be the greatest player, or that a great player makes a great teacher. They do not necessarily go hand in hand, though they can. If someone critiques someones teaching/method, it is not a slight on their playing ability or vise versa.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Guru I am fairly sure SM can hit the ball fairly crisply.

the greatest game ever played

Thanks Waffle…yes I can get some good contact!
how you hitting them?

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Thanks for the link to the swing Showme. It would be super if Lag can drop by and explain the lack of extension , very different from the full spine extension of Hogan

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I don’t think Lag has any problem with people analysing/questioning his method – as has been said, maybe it is his time to move on.

A few points:

1) 170,000 views? 400 posts? Can there really be all that much more to say? Lag’s fundamental stances on just about anything are here and searchable to anyone who wants to know. I look forward to Lag tying all his ideas together in a book. Should be a great read.

2) It is critically important to what has happened recently on this thread that Lag’s terminology and ideas are not correct in terms of TGM; this is a TGM site. In fact, Lag appears to use defined TGM terms in a way that is simply not accurate – which has the potential to cause no end of confusion to the average reader (i.e. the guy who reads about ‘hitting’ in the Golf School and then comes here to read about a very different take on ‘hitting’).

3) I think there is a failure to acknowledge that ISG has been hugely helpful to Lag and that is has provided a fantastic (and free) platform for him to air his views.

4) What are you asking Dart (and Guru or anyone else who has a point of view) to do? Keep schtum even though he disagrees with what Lag is saying?

5) We can’t all agree all the time.

This is not a bl..dy TGM site!!!! It’s a golf forum for goodness sake!! Some of the people here are trying to dissuade everyone thinking differently from posting and therefore are trying to leave only one “golf doctrine” available and talked about but this is a commercial website with a golf forum attached. It’s a FORUM, open to anyone’s ideas.

Definition of FORUM:
A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIO3nL0l0Ac

Homer Kelly Swing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh5wZ0J8rXU

Lag Pressure’s swing

When everything is compared…swing, feel, internal feelings,range of motion, fluidness of motion, footwork, pivot movement, tournament experience, all around everything…I know who I would be listening to…no-brainer

I don’t understand how this is a TGM site ONLY..isn’t it a golf site? and about progressing people’s golfing skills?
Chapter 2 and the physics of what Homer thought are great- that gives us all an understanding of what makes a ball fly and the forces contributing- after that it should all be open to discussion

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Guru I am fairly sure SM can hit the ball fairly crisply.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Clampet’s precision fell apart as do many other pro’s. What he was able to do was not what he had been doing. He himself blamed the off the rails stuff to having ears that were too big and being distracted.

Lag played with TGM. What has been posted in here of late shows some gaps in its understanding. That does not distract from what he does and teaches which can and does have results. The latter is what its all about.

Showme, you should visit an Evans or Blake and see how all this stuff fits in and you would really get what Lag is doing even better.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Any clue on trivia SM ?

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I am not sure how I get the blame BOM? I suggested if I was Lag I wouldn’t be bothered listening to all the back talk.. I don’t make his decisions for him why he hasn’t added anything of late. I know why and it isn’t my doing…so it is not up to me to explain.
there are contentious points with everything… Lag has improved hacks, 20 handicappers and single markers and is now helping pros boost their game. He covers the spectrum and EVERYONE is seeing a startling improvement.
There are no quick fixes in the program. It takes work and diligence- as it should. The beauty about Lag’s teaching is it is ALWAYS monitored. Not like the normal let me have a lesson and run off into the dark hole of practice and playing and totally get lost again on my own accord. Regular lessons are all about trying to stick a club somewhere and dump a wrist at the ball and watch your head movement and finish on your toe..total generic waste of time advice
Unless you have done Lag’s program- some have done 1 module- some have done 4…I know of the first 6 modules now…you won’t get any understanding of it and really have no right to criticize. Lag played with a TGM background- he knows all that stuff.He also knows parts were missing. Just like Clampett dropped off like a hot potato when his game couldn’t continue to hold up when crunch time came.
Reading Lag’s thoughts on these pages is only a quick insight of his beliefs. The module work is the crux of it all ….and it IS working with players of all standards….WHY?.....because Lag has it figured out. The swing is built in an order that makes sense.
So unless anyone goes through the system, even a part of it, they don’t get it.
The muscles learn to know and the ball becomes incidental….........
It is grade A teaching.You can have your Leadbetters and your Butch’s and McLean’s and Blake’s and whomever you want to name. They have NOTHING on what Lag is teaching and how easy the swing starts to evolve from doing it.
If you want to try for your quick fix, then go elsewhere…but if you are serious and want to be as good as you can be, there really is nothing that can touch what Lag is talking about.
I have just about seen it all from the golfer’s perspective and there is nothing better. I have said it a million times.. Lag ISthe smartest man I have ever met with regards to the swing …nathsayers..be gone!!

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Read above to clarify my problem with your post.

Reread and still don’t see your point.

To turn your own point back to you, until you go through Lag’s process you cannot say it’s great. You’ve got one module done and some hearsay.

Quote me whare I said it was great.

I never said you criticized Darts methodology.

So is that an apology?

What you did criticize was his perspective on how to teach the average person, and until you are out there trying to get Joe or Joanne Blog to hit the ball better it’s difficult to hear you criticize the perspective of someone who does it very well.

No I didn’t. Quote me where I criticised his perspective on how to teach the average person.

I’m not saying Lag’s modules are or are not great, I’ve never done them.

Exactly.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I think there has been a heap of good stuff.

Beez point (2) is highly accurate about mixed messages and confusion.

Lag is a great guy and always welcome. I look forward to the book and hopefully video too.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I miss Lag.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I don’t think Lag has any problem with people analysing/questioning his method – as has been said, maybe it is his time to move on.

A few points:

1) 170,000 views? 400 posts? Can there really be all that much more to say? Lag’s fundamental stances on just about anything are here and searchable to anyone who wants to know. I look forward to Lag tying all his ideas together in a book. Should be a great read.

2) It is critically important to what has happened recently on this thread that Lag’s terminology and ideas are not correct in terms of TGM; this is a TGM site. In fact, Lag appears to use defined TGM terms in a way that is simply not accurate – which has the potential to cause no end of confusion to the average reader (i.e. the guy who reads about ‘hitting’ in the Golf School and then comes here to read about a very different take on ‘hitting’).

3) I think there is a failure to acknowledge that ISG has been hugely helpful to Lag and that is has provided a fantastic (and free) platform for him to air his views.

4) What are you asking Dart (and Guru or anyone else who has a point of view) to do? Keep schtum even though he disagrees with what Lag is saying?

5) We can’t all agree all the time.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Styles,

You did not criticise but Lags “frozen right arm” is exactly what we don’t want people get into. Their whole power package is already frozen.

We depend heavily on an Active Right Elbow to control Wrist Action and Hand Motion.

If in fact the right arm were frozen and not just a feeling – the swing center would be around the head instead of the left shoulder.

I have tested what I thought Lag said and it is where a good action would evolve to given enough time and correct direction.

We HAVE to make the distinction.

I think to by pass Homers completeness of work cripples
future golfers exploration. Homers work is partly why Lag is so good. I would say that Lag could not be Lag without Homer

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Macs, I don’t doubt Lag for a second, and if you reread my post you’ll see that I clarified that- the post wasn’t about Lag or his teaching. What I was knocking was Styles criticizing Dart for knocking Lag’s modules without doing them(and I still don’t think that Dart was actually knocking them- he was just putting them in context of time and will an average person might have to do them) while having very weak personal experience of the modules himself. He basically had a go at Dart for doing the same thing he did, only he was saying they were great without going through them. Like I said above, I think Lag is fantastic. Full stop. I also think debate is fantastic and we all benefit from it as do the debaters. I think it’s sad when a discussion breaks down because of disagreement or misunderstanding and I’m always on the side of rolling through things like that with some understanding. The world is full of problems from Communication Breakdowns and it’s a pity when the same things happen in microcosms like this site. Sometimes agreeing to disagree is a brave thing to do.
Styles, I’m not interested in a pissing contest either. Read above to clarify my problem with your post. To turn your own point back to you, until you go through Lag’s process you cannot say it’s great. You’ve got one module done and some hearsay. I never said you criticized Darts methodology. What you did criticize was his perspective on how to teach the average person, and until you are out there trying to get Joe or Joanne Blog to hit the ball better it’s difficult to hear you criticize the perspective of someone who does it very well. That’s what I meant by qualified. And to reiterate, I’m not saying Lag’s modules are or are not great, I’ve never done them.
Has anyone ever seen Ferris Beullers Day Off? I think this post reads like that seen in the classroom when the girl is explaining what happened to Ferris!
We clearly all love golf, Lads (and Lassies- you never can tell)... if Lag left this thread then I’m pretty sure it was because it was his time to leave the nest and be out on his own in the world. Some blame Dart and I blamed Shome for calling for an end to this. But in reality, I think it may just have been Lag’s time to do his own thing.. I for one hope he drops in from time to time.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Bom, I’m not interested in getting in a pissing contest.

What I have said is valid. Until you have gone through Lag’s process you cannot criticise it.

Quote me where I have criticised Dart’s methodology.

I know that Dart is an excellent teacher, I know he has produced many fine golfers and will continue to do so. I am not knocking what he teaches, what I do have a problem with is Lag’s teaching methods being knocked despite there being no knowledge of how he goes about them.

If I criticised your own teaching methods without having any experience of them, surely you would take exception to that! Where is the difference?

Lag builds the swing bit by bit. As I have said, he can and will discuss the science if you want but it is not necessary to his teaching.

As to leaving criticism only to teachers, where is the sense of that? The most important factor in teaching is results. Only students can verify a teacher is helping them because of their results. To say that I should not be permitted to criticise is conceited to say the least.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

BOM
We dont want to start a new discussion on Lag’s Methodology when he is not here. But I will attest to the man’s integrity and humility. He is quite the Dervesh in making money out of his teaching. I have been his student since March and have amazed myself a few times despite staritng golf 2 years ago at 43. His methodology is amazingly simple but you can never get it without doing the modules. And as for the cost it has cost me $400 since March. I think that is nothing comapred to what you can be out with smoke and mirror teaching.
I worked on my swing at an indoor facility through the winter (for $$$). Just before Lag, my local pro was making me take the club back on plane while constantly watching the monitor for weeks. I just threw up thinking of that highway to golfing nirwana.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Styles, in fairness, you should leave the criticizing of the qualified teachers to the qualified. Furthermore, and this is no knock on Lag because I don’t know his modules plus I think he’s fantastic. But having done one module and then what you ‘understand’ will be the case following that is pretty damn poor police work yourself. Just because you’re in the clique doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. That’s schoolyard basics. Not everyone has the time and money that you clearly have to pursue golfing perfection. The Dart and his like work with everyday folks looking to get around a golf course with a bit of a smile to show for themselves at the end- and they’re on the pointy end of the stick in their world too, I might add. And you’ve clearly learned more than a thing or two from him yourself as is evidenced by the signature quote you use….
Plus, I’m pretty sure by ‘ordinary’ he’s meaning the average guy or girl with an hour here or there to put into this….
Anyone in the world can log on here and get free world class advice from Dart et al… I’d say that demands a little more respect than calling his form ‘poor’.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

Styles,

Lag said “frozen right arm”. Try teaching that to a tyro. An active right arm is all they have for starters. It can go automatic at some later date.

If Lag teaches Acc#1 to new pupils I take it all back – but he did not say that.

You have no idea of how advanced you are compared to normal and sub normal golfers. Gettingbetter claims to be ordinary when he is a Superpupil. Give me a break.

There are millions of people who want to learn to play golf a little better and they want two lessons – so we do it, well.

Please understand we choose to cater to all golfers.

Styles, gettingbetter and Prot are the top1% of keen students.

We have to teach people who are not students. Club level, men, women and kids and they all talk to each other. Some have one lesson and some have a hundred.

I am more concerned with the poor golfers who get professional level information when they should be getting information relevant to them.

It is not the same stuff.

You don’t tell a learner violinist what you tell a virtuoso.

I know it is hard to see from your lofty heights but start teaching professionally when the improvements are measured exactly. Only then do you know what is right and wrong. What is poor and what is not.

All the best with yours. Don’t forget the background information.

We all need to be able to check the basics that spawned the motion or suffer confusion.

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I have to say that criticising Lag’s modules as being too advanced for ‘ordinary’ golfers without actually trying them is pretty poor.

Lag has time and again given evidence that anyone can learn his course and become a better ball striker and player. he has professional players on his books who have improved and ordinary hackers who have improved. It is not a rocket science course, although lag is pretty equpped to discuss the ‘science’ if you want to.

i have done his first module and there is nothing ‘complicated’ about it. My understanding is that once you can perform the required action to a level he is happy with and have performed it a suitable number of times, he will graduate you to the next module where the process begins again.

As you said Dart, the time of smoke and mirrors is past!

Topic: Let's Talk LAG's GOLF MACHINE!

I actually found iseek because I was interested in TGM and browsed over here one day following a link from Lynn Blake.

I found Lag’s thread which was wonderfully informative and vibrant. I had actually tried to read the yellow book but found it incomprehensible…

I am one of Lag’s students so I feel qualified to comment on his methodology. He does not teach quick fixes or tips, he teaches his students how to swing the club like the greats. It is hard work and sometimes one has to persevere but improvement comes in bursts as the modules finally work their way into your real swing.

It is a method for students who want to learn how to strike the ball properly and are prepared to dedicate themselves to a long term project rather than a quick fix. Different students improve at different rates, personally I feel that several pennies have finally dropped in the last two weeks as evidenced by a 2 over par round on Sunday in contrast to the 15/20 handicap golf I was playing when I joined the class in March. That round contained two three putts and my three birdies were from very close range. The previous day I hit 8 greens out of 9 in regulation on the front 9. This the kind of ballstriking that I have been working hard towards and yes, it has taken seven months of hard work. Other students on Lag’s class have progressed much quicker.

I am only in module 4 ( there are 11 modules) which is the most advanced module so far and no specific mention has yet been made of power sources or types of pivot motion, instead the emphasis is on discrete biomechanical drills which deal with these highly technical matters which I found very offputting when trying to understand the yellow book.

Just my twopennysworth to provide some balance to the debate….