Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / FLOP SHOTS

Shouldn’t you use whatever works best? I swing sometimes, I hit others. Generally I just play golf ;-)

Yes AB, you should use whatever works best. That is why I posted that in general hitters would agree with your statement and swingers would disagree. My post was to try and help others reading this thread that might want to learn or improve this type of golf shot. There is a reason why what I posted is true, however I would venture that neither of you knows why. I forgot that what used to be a really fun and good forum has now become the Bio and AB forum and that a post’s relevance only counts in how it pertains to you two or if you agree with it. There are others that participate on this forum that deserve a lot more information than what you two can provide. If you don’t believe that my post was one of them, then prove me wrong.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / FLOP SHOTS

Reverse roll hinging is the optimal in flopping! ;-)

AB,
I believe that most hitters would agree with you, however most swingers on this type of shot would disagree with your statement. I guess that is what makes this a wonderful journey.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

,
(remember acceleration means speed is increasing exponentially)

Sorry to detract from a very good thread and discussion, however, I believe that you might want to rethink this statement.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Dreaded Chicken Wing

Bio, I agree with you as I mentioned before, I just thought it would be interesting to get a really good player to make the chicken wing move and be able to compare the results against their good swing. Information concerning how much their clubhead speed is affected and really how early in their downswing they start making compensations for this move. Maybe it’s not interesting to anyone else, I just thought it might be a good way of using the tool you have available to get some quantifiable results, i.e. in general 10% increase in clubhead speed, etc.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Dreaded Chicken Wing

Bio, if you get the chance in the next few days I would like for you to do a little experiment for us. If you have AB or another really good golfer in your vest and they are swinging well, get them to make a swing where they chicken wing thru impact and record the results. Don’t take this to be saying I don’t believe your analysis above about the pivot, I just would like to see the results of pivot changes and clubhead velocity when someone makes this move. I just think it would be interesting to see how early in the downswing the pivot actually is effected to make this move. If you don’t have the time or don’t have the inclination to do this, I will understand.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Building a swing

In my opinion, this is one of the most important concepts to learning golf. Start from the beginning and work your way back. If we were all sitting in an office and our boss came in and said, Hey, I need you guys to build this very complex machine and it needs to hit this little white orb with this club and the ball must fly in this manner after it is hit, just think of how we would start and go about it. I bet we would start with impact and work our way back. We would make sure that it could send the ball properly 10 meters before we would worry about sending it 250 meters, AB in your case 350 meters.

I know that I often make the mistake of trying to make impact fit into my swing and that is the exact opposite of what I should be doing. Good thread, thanks for the reminder.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / SWING FAST or HIT HARD?

One last post here just to try and clarify a few thoughts and statements. I won’t argue any specifics in this response.

AB, if you felt that I had a hand in hijacking your thread I apologize. In my defense, I don’t believe that I starting participating in the discussion until very late in the thread. I finally got involved because I think that your original question(s) were very good and ones that I have considered and put a lot of thought into over the years. I just felt that false information was being given as truths and it happened to be in an area that I feel somewhat qualified to give answers.

I would never in a million years challenge you to a long drive contest! Maybe I am not very smart, but I am smart enough not to do that. I would just say that I believe that your confidence in your long driving ability would be similar to the confidence I have in my understanding and training in the laws of physics and motion that we have been discussing.

Bio, I would love to get strapped up in your vest and work with you on my swing. I think that you have a lot to offer, however I think that you get a little excitable at times a take things too far. This is only my opinion, I could be wrong, I have been many times in my life. I am truly happy that you have made such a comeback from your accident and I am glad that you have decided to live life the best that you can and not to sulk away with a woe is me mentality. That, in itself, is enough to garner all the respect that I can have for another person.

I really, really tried to stay out of this thread entirely because it was apparent that both of you are very passionate about this subject. I would just suggest that you look at yourselves a little and see if both of you are not the least respectful of other people’s differing positions than anyone else in this thread. I will definitely take a step back and re-evaluate myself.

If there is true interest in some of the questions that have been raised, such as, why the clubhead slowing down is not a delayed reaction and several others, I would be more than happy to pen my arguments in another thread. If it gets heated in discussion, I will not participate anymore in it. I need golf and few of the forums to help relax and relieve stress from work. I intend to keep it fun and useful.

Be well.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / SWING FAST or HIT HARD?

AB,
I intend for this to be my last post in this thread as it has mostly become ridiculous. Your attack against anyone who disagrees with you is really quite childish and you really should listen to what some of us are trying to teach you. We are very happy for you if anything that Bio or anyone else teaches you helps you to hit the ball longer and straighter, I would assume that is why we are all here. Your attacks against people that obviously have some knowledge in the area of physics and measurements are uncalled for. Since you always want to question others credentials, briefly, I have a graduate level Mechanical Engineering degree and have done consulting work with NASA on both the space shuttle and the stealth line of aircraft. My particular expertise is in dynamics of machines and materials and their properties. The science that Matt and myself are trying to help you to understand have: put men on the moon, put and kept satellites in orbit around the earth, can put munitions within 6 inches from over 1000 miles away, get 100 ton aircraft to fly, besides all of the everyday tasks of robots, sensors, drive systems, etc.

Bio has made several claims on this forum that some of us know to be untrue, his latest is mostly about his sampling rate and what is truly measured and what is extrapolated, but he is claiming to be a true, real time measurement. In actuality, there is no such thing as real time measurement so the question becomes: is it close enough to achieve the goal of the project and is the extrapolated information close enough to be viable. For some of his claims, the extrapolated information is not viable.

In my opinion, if you just want to hit the ball longer and straighter then just say that feeling or attempting to do such and such has really improved your swing and don’t try and make it an absolute when it clearly is not.

The reason that I have a problem with the information that you and Bio are espousing is because it is read by many people and it is very likely to send them down wrong paths. They have found a very good website with a lot of good information that in my opinion you and Bio are diminishing with many of your claims. I understand that this is only my opinion and that is why I will leave this thread alone from now on.

As I have mentioned earlier, there is no malice intended by my response, I just felt compelled to respond.

If the question of whether or not I can apply these theories and statements into practical results applies to me also, I would just answer that as long as we are playing golf and not long driving, I would play you at anytime for whatever you would be willing to lose.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / SWING FAST or HIT HARD?

Bio, remember that the ball hits the driver just as hard as the driver hits the ball.

I thought that you were extolling the virtues about accelerating the clubhead past impact just a few days ago? Now you are claiming that we slow the clubhead down immediately after impact? Which one is it because I am pretty sure that you can’t do both?

Also, how would you explain the twisting of a clubhead on off center hits compared to a ball not slowing down a clubhead from impact? Is this done with the mass of our body weight?

You are digging yourself a deep, deep hole, I would suggest that you take a look at the laws of force and motion and learn to abide by them and use them to your advantage instead of trying to write new ones, you will be a much better teacher in the end.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / SWING FAST or HIT HARD?

ShortsTuff, thanks for the link that you provided. I had only heard the COR info from the clubmaking end of the story. It was very interesting to learn that the overall COR from the impact collision actually decreases in ratio with a higher clubhead speed due to the inefficiency of the elasticity of the golf ball. I read over the article briefly and will revisit and do a thorough job of reading the study. Thanks again for taking the time to research and post the link.

Bio, your claim that the clubhead slows down after the ball is long gone is just not accurate. I know that when people are discussing a few ten thousandths of a second, that it is hard for humans to comprehend, it is not a delayed reaction, if the clubhead had not slowed down by the time that the ball separated, then their would be no force left to cause the clubhead to decelerate, (excluding gravity, air resistance, etc and also considering a shot off of a tee with no ground resistance). I realize that you claim that this has been measured and that it is 6 frames per second after impact, however, this goes against the laws of force and motion.

Would it be possible for you to explain in some detail the k-vest measurement of frames per second? I think this would help many of us to be able to communicate and understand you better. You are the only one that uses theses terms as a measurement and the rest of us are not in the know of what exactly that means.

Make sure that this is read as just a healthy debate from my end. No malice is intended for anyone..

Also, I have got to find the thread with the link that describes how to properly format my paragraphs in this forum. I apologize for the difficulty in reading my structure.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / SWING FAST or HIT HARD?

AB,
You’ve had Mr. Kelley’s book for what, a week now, and you are the expert telling me about it’s intricacies? It’s okay, it is worthy of your enthusiasm. I question often, mostly myself, but there are some things that I believe to be bad information and sometimes I can’t help but speak my opinion when it gets to be too much.
I would mostly disagree with your statement that TGM is mearly the surface layer and that you should incubate the ideas. I believe that Mr. Kelley thinks you should incubate the components and how they work together or don’t, but that the ideas which are the laws of force and motion and the geometry of the circle are indisputable. Again, some claims made in this thread and others are not correct and are not physically possible, they contradict the very laws that this great man used to develop his masterpiece. How can you be such a zealot for the work he did and then promote ideas and claims that go against the very laws that he based his work upon?
I hope that your work with Bio and your endeavors into TGM lead you to your goals in long driving. I would love to to watch you hit some balls. I love watching long drivers hit a ball, their swings are so dynamic. I hope that you continue to keep posting and letting us know what you are working on and improvements that you make, also don’t forget to report if you work on some items and you don’t get the results you want. Failure is a learning tool also. I hope that you get a chance to post some of your swings on video.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / SWING FAST or HIT HARD?

From the preface of Homer Kelley’s The Golfing Machine>

“The Physics of Golf does not specify special “Golf Laws”-only the simple, universal Laws of Force and Motion that you use every day because you cannot move yourself or anything else except in compliance with them. Physics merely takes the “seems as if” out of things. Including Golf.”

Bio has created special golf laws if he believes that he or anyone else can carry a golf ball 285 meters with 85 – 90 mph clubhead speed. It is against the laws that Mr. Kelley used to form his book. I obviously am talking about conforming equipment and “normal” circumstances. This leads to only these possibilities: the hole measurement is not correct or includes a fairway that has some dogleg in it or he swung the clubhead a lot faster than 85 – 90 mph.

As for the mention of the golfer that had a higher than 1.5 ball to clubhead ratio: COR, (now CT), has a limit that is imposed by the USGA and R and A. This is not a constant. It is measured under specific circumstances including ball speed. The COR of a driver will be higher at higher swing speeds and lower at lower swing speeds. Obviously, long drivers have a higher than average swing speed so if they are using a club that is at or very near the COR limit, they will be able to achieve a higher ball to clubhead ratio than those with a slower clubhead speed.

This thread is a good read and there are some good ideas that have been presented, but there is also a lot of “crap” that is being thrown about. Quality of the strike is paramount. It is what Mr. Kelley based his whole book around. spin rate, launch angle, and initial ball speed are all affected by the impact collision and sometimes a slower clubhead speed increases these conditions to be more productive for the golfer. However, all of these are still dictated by the laws that Mr. Kelley knew and used, they have not changed.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Why Golfers Aim Right

Jeff,
It’s how you go about it, the way you come across, your practicly telling people they are wrong and not accept their views then you have to keep on about it,
Jeff I have tried to point things out to you but you won’t, STOP,LOOK, LISTEN AND LEARN,

Hi pot, I’m kettle.

2 peas in a pod.

Anyone have any more?

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / The importance of the Bent Right Wrist.

Eventually, consciously keeping your right wrist bent will not be the ‘magic’ that it is in the beginning. You will know that there is more power available, but may not be quite sure how to find it. Swingers, learn to uncock your left wrist down plane, it won’t want to bend if you do it correctly. You can uncock downplane a lot longer than you probably imagine. Hitters, learn to straighten your right arm down plane, ditto for you. Occasionally for giggles uncock your left wrist and straighten your right arm down plane at the same time, down, down, down.

Remember, these moves downplane are your clubhead velocity generators. Rolling the clubface square to the ball just transfers the speed. In general, worry less about squaring your clubface and worry more about moving the club down plane. Learn this correctly and you will be a very good golfer, learn to get your pivot to maximize a downplane swing…we’ll be watching you on the tele.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / The "Muntz trying to play golf" thread

From the 6th Edition:
6-B-1-D. Extensor Action is exclusively the steady effort to straighten the bent Right Arm. This stretches but does not move the Left Arm and produces structural rigidity that is a strong deterrent to collapse under the stresses of Acceleration and Impact. It is in operation from Impact Fix to the end of the Follow-through. In addition, this action promotes:
-1. the full extension of the Left Arm at all times
-2. the full extension of the right Arm for the Follow-through
-3. the correct rate of “Clubhead Closing”
-4. the proper type of support for “passive”(non-accelerating) Clubhead Lag Pressure involving Wristcock
Except with Zero Accumulator #3 the “stretch” direction is always Below Plane. Because of Extensor Action, the Right Triceps can never be totally “passive”.....

My opinions concerning Extensor Action:
Starting off, some people will have to feel this by keeping your left arm straight, this is better than nothing, but learn to do it by using your right tricept as Mr. Kelley suggested.
This is very much part of educating your hands.
Remember and learn that this action is below plane.
For most people, keeping this action from the top or end of your backswing through the initial acceleration is the hardest to keep, but the most important. When you learn this, you know how hard and how fast you can accelerate, it will be limited by your ability to keep your extensor action properly maintained through this time of your swing. You want to hit the ball further, learn to accelerate as fast as you can keeping your extensor action.
+ Proper extensor action will make a lot of swing ills magically go away.

There are a few other things I would like to say about extensor action, but this is enough for now (some might say too much). I will let you figure out the rest on your own. Hopefully the real teachers will chime in and help direct you with this.

Edit: I don’t know why some of this is underlined, I didn’t do it on purpose.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Right arm dominant Hitting 101

• The aim of good golf should be an uncompensated ( pure ) swing or hit, even if you miss the ball. Just keep doing it ‘till the ball gets in the way.

Ah, the biggest conundrum in golf: do I learn to swing, hit correctly or do I do whatever is necessary to try and make the ball go where I want it to go. Separation of play versus true practice until goals are met and then new goals established. I wish that I had been given this advice when I started. The hours wasted trying to groove some good moves…just not compatible. If I had only known. Dart and Guru, keep up the good fight, while most will never glean or understand the bits of wisdom, some will and they will forever be indebted.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Right arm dominant Hitting 101

Thanks guys, I appreciate the compliment. More importantly, I appreciate a place where questions can be asked and answers or a direction is given. It is amazing what can be bantered about and what can be learned when egos are checked at the door.

Bio, I really don’t have a lot of TGM knowledge. I have read through a few times and I keep it handy to check questions I have. I wish I had personal access to an AI, but in all truth, I probably learn more by digging at it and checking the book and digging some more and then repeating this process over and over. This place really helps the journey.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Right arm dominant Hitting 101

Hacking Dog,

The smart thing to do is study and practice until you can answer that question for yourself.

At their level they could be doing all kinds of weird things. Homer said, “you can master anything”. But they would have a variety of shot, stingers, knockdown, punch shots, low flying rollers, rockets and anything else that defies definition. That is what a virtuoso can do. Bloody anything.

The reason for hitting and swinging is to clarify the path for we mortals that were not born with gifts that evolve into an Els or Couples who drop clearly into the swinger catagory

Dart,
I 100% agree with you, that is why I don’t understand why hitting is taught the way that it is (I am not including this place in this statement). I quoted Mr. Kelley and was immediately asked if I suggested 4 barrel hitting. Being able to add and subtract a power source only improves a person’s game. Is 4 barrel hitting as precise as 3 barrel?, generally no. But if you are on the tee and need to bust one and there isn’t really any trouble, the extra distance may be worth the inaccuracy. I think that we agree, learn to do it and see what it gives you. It is an option, not mandatory.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Right arm dominant Hitting 101

Guru and Dart,
Do you really think that all of the Pros are pure hitters or swingers? I ask this question sincerely.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Right arm dominant Hitting 101

Are you suggesting to hit with a Four Barrel Stroke -variation?

My advice is try it, you might like it.

Try is certainly a good point, master it,that’s a different kettle of fish
But you are true, it’s certainly a power addition

I’m french, but I treat myself…

Mr. Kelley suggested it, I took him up on it. My belief is that if you can get your right shoulder to work properly, then it is very easy to add pivot thrust to any stroke that you desire. This is especially true in today’s game and the speed that is required to play. Is it for everyone, no, but why would you not want to try it and see for yourself? The game has changed dramatically since Mr. Kelley left us, he would have adjusted to today’s game. This is obviously only my opinion and anyone can use it or dismiss it as they see fit.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Right arm dominant Hitting 101

Why is all hitting instruction taught as right triceps power only? Or at least it seems this way to me.

6th Edition, 2-M-4, ...To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting a Swinger’s essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward impact. Or,as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter’s loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot Speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed.

My advice is try it, you might like it.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Launch Angle Issues

Ball speed is limited by the COR or now called CT limitations designed into the face of a driver. It is directly proportional to the clubhead speed and obviously quality of contact. While you can diminish the ball speed that can be achieved from a given swing speed, you cannot increase the ball speed above what the physics of the impact dictate. Your kinetic chain can only be used to increase clubhead speed if it is to have any positive influence on driver distance.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Launch Angle Issues

Windy,
I use a graphite alite 500 filament wound shaft and pured, this shaft is fantastic ,never been able to hit graphite until fergs fitted me with this. I use 13 degrees of loft 460 head. I can krank it miles for my swing speed of 85mph. 13th beach, think creek course calm day drove the green on the fly 285 metres to six feet thankyou easy eagle.

Against the laws of physics unless you had a non-conforming head and it would have to be non conforming by a bunch.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Feeling from Mechanics

When we realize where the pressure rotates to we can then sense it correctly.

So, the lag pressure in pp#3 is not predominately felt during start down because of the use of pp#2 pulling longitudinally along the shaft until or if pp#3 rotates back to the back of the shaft before impact.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. So I am not crazy or a complete moron. This is exactly what I was asking and couldn’t comprehend that it was different. If you are swinging and you feel a lot of pressure in pp3, then you would probably be OTT, is this correct? Thanks for hanging with me guys, I really appreciate it.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Feeling from Mechanics

If you are on plane at the end of your backswing, you have rotated (maybe fanned) the club 90 degrees, or close, open and your left hand (with flw) is laying on top of the plane then your right hand is laying on the bottom of the plane. If the force from your pivot is longitudinal down towards the plane line, then until you roll how can you have pressure on pp3? Isn’t the pressure on pp1 and 2 until the roll? Again, I am just trying to learn and improve my golf game and this is a point that I have never understood or felt as others have described. I also can’t understand it from a intellectual level. Thanks for your understanding and willingness to help.