Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

100% perfect is a sad neurotic state of mind. Better than yesterday is saner.

You know Paul, you may have just changed my life with that little gem!

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Lagpressure,

I realise this is a TGM based forum and my comments will be frowned upon but as good as Homer Kelly intended to base his book on physics and geometry,does that mean he got everything right?He was not even an engineer.

When I sat my mechanics exam in uni,I used the principles of physics to the best of my knowledge to answer the questions.Does that mean I got 100% in the exam?I sure wished I did.

I am sure Kelly got a high mark in the book but to assume there are no flaws is a very closed minded approach especially regarding such an extremely complex motion like the golf swing.

There have been serious doubts already raised in other forums regarding the validity of sustaining the line of compression.

dap,

Even Jesus Christ was not perfect, he was part man too. Homer admitted, let tomorrows rubbish be better than today’s. If you knew him you would be a better man. He would give you your point of view with humanity. I am sorry you feel so small.

100% perfect is a sad neurotic state of mind. Better than yesterday is saner. Show me better and I will use it. Tomorrow.

He wrote to make you think and look afresh. Same old stuff but know you have to look past your preconceptions and previous misunderstandings. That is why we applaud him, not for his technical precision.

You sound like you need to be given G.O.L.F. instead of having to work for it like the rest of us.

Do the work he advises in Chap.12 and you will get the best results of any system on earth for there is no other that does not try to force you into a their pattern. Here you get to choose your own. you just have to understand enough Physics and Geometry to build you own swing, not pass a theory exam.

If there has been doubt cast upon maintaining the line of compression, let them come to me for 5 minutes and I will alter their point of view. All you have to do is hit a 2.5cm. by 3 mtr. piece of doweling with a chip shot to discover the impact alignments.

Thanks for exposing yourself. I hope you learned something. I presume you are trying to learn rather than destroy something that thousands love.

Not a noble quest or a difficult one. Take up the real challenge.

Topic: Flat vs Upright

Numbers,

Peter Senior in the 80’s cut it left so tight after impact, just like Hogan,
and it’s this action that sets up the 5th accumulator. I could see a teacher trying to “straighten out” Peter, keep his tilt, get rid of the funny finish, and it would just destroy his totally amazing swing. This is the kind of rubbish that so many instructors do. If Peter came to me for a lesson, I would only be asking him questions about what he is feeling, the kinds of drills he did, what his thoughts are and so forth, so I would be the one taking the lesson! I was so in awe of his ball striking, I wish took the chance to get to know him when I was down there. I have heard he is a really down to earth approachable guy. I know I could learn a lot from him, even to this day.

So do as he did, I don’t know about Gary Edwin, or what he teaches, but I can’t imagine wanting to tamper with Peter Senior’s swing. One of the best I have ever seen. I can assure you he should be teaching Gary not the other way around.

To answer your question, this is what a hitter should be doing! Peter is a model of what I would teach and like for myself in the most idealistic situation.

Topic: Flat vs Upright

Stebboko,

Keep working on it, I really believe you are in fact really understanding what I am saying.. you should start seeing results if you apply these concepts.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

I certainly speak as the guinea pig test subject, and I can certainly explain what things are going to have to feel like when such actions
of physics and law are applied.

I by no means am a physicist, I am the son of an engineer so I probably picked up the analytical mind thing from pop… but the thing about golf is that it is a game of feel, and although all the math and physics, geometry and so forth is going on, you can’t possibly think about that stuff while you are playing or hitting shots. The concepts are not as difficult to understand as they are to execute. I can talk all day about holding the flex of the shaft to the ball and beyond, but I can assure you it is no easy feat.

I have two particular concepts that I believe and apply, the first I speak with strong conviction, that being the hitters 5th accumulator. The raising of the arms off the body after the 4rth parallel. It no doubt can extend the force on the shaft once all the other accumulators have been exhausted… and although it may seem to most that the ball is already gone, I would like to see what would happen if Ben Hogan kept his arms pinned to his body after impact and never lifted them up off the body at all. I believe that if the plane of the club stayed on elbow plane right to the finish with the hands just about hip high at the finish, you would see a huge power loss.
The deceleration that would take place would be disastrous.

The second is the Hogan move again, because from everything I see, it appears that he drag loads it, then drive loads it, then uses a combination of the pivot and 5th accumulator to radially accelerate it after impact. It really looks like a swinger’s move all the way to impact, but all hitter after impact, so my question and hunch is that this is what he did, and I do everything I can to do the same thing,
but I don’t quite have the hip speed Hogan had, but at times I can get it going pretty good with the hips, and it is really a different ball game when you attack the ball with such a power onslaught.

A quicker backswing tempo sets up more centripetal force at the change in direction, the outward turns inward, then the right arm quickly straightens, then that inward force quickly bounces into an outward throw, or centrifugal force, that as it is being assaulted on the ball is then redirected through a fast hip flat torso rotation past the ball into a radial acceleration that is then ripped back up the plane with the raising of the arms up and off the body in a final attempt to keep force on the shaft. The thing that seems to set Hogan apart from the modern players is that his hands looked so soft on the downswing for a hitter.
There is that suppleness, in the float loading that goes on during the start of the downswing, and that is not the look you see typically from a hitter. I really had that look too, but not as a hitter. Now I am pretty firm coming down, and resist that compression centripetal stuff. Hogan didn’t resist it, and that is such a swinger trait.

This is all really high end application stuff, but I just can’t rule out the possibility that this is what he did, regardless whether or not Homer said you can’t do both.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Dap: if you do a search into the bowels of this forum you will find that yours truly rather tongue in cheekily said CF was a fictional force:) It started a looonnngggg (and boring to most) physics discussion. haha.

In here we do try real hard to keep to things with practical application and semantics can be left in general to the more in depth forums.

I think we all know a rock twirled on a string is kept tight by CF (or as numbers asks by what other term or collection of terms?)

If you guys do wish to kick on with this idea, set up another thread please:)

I am off for the weekend at this point. Have a great time out there all.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

I believe the term is centripetal force.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Dap, but what term would you use? Legit question.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Absolutely,this is one of the less close minded TGM forums otherwise I would not post at all as it would be pointless.

CF is recognised by engineers for its real life applications but they still consider it fictional.I believe it’s real but I would not go into a physics exam using that term as I want to pass it!

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

CF is recongnised by engineers for what it is so we can disregard that one for a start, an old chestnut. Add to that the Glossary clearly defined how it and many other terms were ulitised within the book to avoid confusion.

Endorsement is not the right world either. Engineers could not find fault with the assistant’s findings.

Hardly think this forum fits into one which is closed minded? I think in here you should find that we have happily said if there is new info that fits the Laws of force and motion that can be used life would progress. Lag’s teachers are a perfect example.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Not certain about anything as I didn’t know Homer personally but if anyone can prove me wrong,I am all ears.

To the best of my knowledge,he was an engineers assistant.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

LHe was not even an engineer.

Dap

Are you certain he was not an engineer ?

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

I don’t disagree that the book is full of gems.I am just saying it’s very closed minded to assume everything is correct.The golf swing is an extremely complicated motion to analyse even with the laws of physics.It’s very easy to get the application wrong.

I would be very surprised if MIT did endorse the book.Homer uses the term “centrifugal force”.Maintstream scientists frown at the term as they believe it’s fictitional.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

TGM HQ have said that the info in the archives. The MIT engineering fellow who did put their eyes to it would be long in their graves at a guess so hard to say how they went about it.

The book is a hard read and confuses more people than enlightens first up that is for sure. Poorly written though portrays that the underlaying info is poor when it is the other end of the spectrum.

Once you get how to work your way around the contents, its full of gems, practical ones.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Guru,

I have heard that the book was sent to MIT but it remains a rumour and not confirmed by MIT to the best of my knowledge.

In case it were true,how serious did MIT undertake the study of the book?The book is poorly written and confusing at the best of times and easily misinterpreted.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

dap: The book got sent to MIT in the early days. It came back with 100% from the eggs who’s only negative comment was “wish it were easier to read”.

Doubts expressed elsewhere generally are just that. Few have managed to pull the concepts apart before finding their own ideas are somewhere else in the work and actually utilised.

Homer was a man not a demi god that is for sure. Anyone who finds additional work that you can use to improve your golf I am all for as it would have to fit into the engineering dept approach that he took himself.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Lagpressure,

I realise this is a TGM based forum and my comments will be frowned upon but as good as Homer Kelly intended to base his book on physics and geometry,does that mean he got everything right?He was not even an engineer.

When I sat my mechanics exam in uni,I used the principles of physics to the best of my knowledge to answer the questions.Does that mean I got 100% in the exam?I sure wished I did.

I am sure Kelly got a high mark in the book but to assume there are no flaws is a very closed minded approach especially regarding such an extremely complex motion like the golf swing.

There have been serious doubts already raised in other forums regarding the validity of sustaining the line of compression.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Lag

Do you consider Steve Elkington to be a swinger or a hitter ?

Reading his book ‘Five Fundamentals’, he seems to be expressing similar thoughts to what you are saying re. your swing.

Cheers

Topic: Flat vs Upright

Numbers,

Emulate the Physics of leverage.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Lag: I think that one good thing about having a long time incubating the yellow book and not working directly for too long under someone like “a Ben” for us lot down under is we are not strapped to a single pattern learning process. When our students get together for a hit you can hear them talking on the range or 19th hole along the lines of,
“Boy what a classic swinger you are.”
And,
“I never could do that hitting thing you just nail it with.”

Even at the Roadmap workshops we show hitting and swinging to show that neither is right nor wrong, more that some people are more naturally inclined one way or the other to one type of power generation.

The fact is few know how to teach a hitter when they walk onto a lesson tee and this leads to a longer and tougher learning process for the player.

Blonde or Brunette, don’t mind:)

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

(Will he be in Sydney the weekend after biO?)

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Dart,
Even if you made a little grief with drag loading,I think it’s good you learnt what not to do, And now you can boot blokes like me in the arse and set us straight with what is the right way to teach and wrong , what isn’t effective to which way is most effective open our minds and ensure we don’t close them so no one follows the same path.
I still not sold on swinging, nor am I sold you hit it further swinging.
My long drive guy is a hitter and he’s third best in the country at present and hoping this weekend hits number 1.
Give me hitting any day, wish all my students preferred this method, I could retire

Topic: Flat vs Upright

We all love to hit hard from the top, that’s easy, it’s easier to generate speed from the top to impact than from impact to the finish,
but unfortunately that’s not how to hit good repeating golf shots.
and this is why golf is so difficult, people don’t get it, they don’t understand this, and teachers don’t understand this, because the golf swing is not as important before impact as it is after.

A scientist might argue it’s physically impossible to see pressure, but strangely it is easy to see the impact pressure Ben puts on the ball – like his core is welded to his hands at impact. The resulting compressions just have to happen. I can appreciate the aim of great speed after impact is crucial in generating great impact pressure.

Also I feel the overly light grips typically recommended to rid tension have caused many problems. Jack Nicklaus et al advising to hold the club like you would an injured bird. Too much slow down during impact, a wobbly point both dissipating impact pressure like a car’s shock absorber and affecting clubface direction for non-centered hits. It’s obvious that a lot of thought went into the word ‘oily’ as it attacks tension, not grip pressure.

Topic: Flat vs Upright

Thanks Lagpressure.
The biggest problem for me in my search for the effective Hitting pattern is getting rid of the physics of swinging. Some times, I say to mayself that I may be able to become a pure Hitter. And in my attempt to have faster hands post impact mostly leads to throwaway. But I have been working on it since first reading your posts and I can see the beauty of Hitting. Also, with my type of personality where I like to be in “control” ( :)), it’s good to have my right arm muscles in control rather than “ask” centrifugal force to free wheel it for me.

As a visual aid, and to see how the best get their No 5 power accumulator, I replayed an old video of Peter Senior in the Aussie Open in 1996. I can still see his signature “up” move post impact and as you illustrated in your other posts. I understand that Peter Senior may have been working with Gary Edwin at the time so this move may not have been so dramatic as it was in his prime in the late 80’s, but it’s still there (BTW, he was leading in that final round). My question is: is this what a Hitter should be looking to emulate?

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Dart,

It’s so exciting to hear that you are open to teaching hitting to people,
as a TGM guy, I personally believe it is vital to really understand the difference between these polar opposite approaches to hitting a golf ball.

After watching Manzella video, he never mentions the difference between the two, and he talks about all the wonderful swinging techniques which is all great stuff, but then takes credit for David Toms who is not swinging like that. He’s hitting… as he should be.. he’s on tour against the best in the world.. good stuff. But isn’t this confusing for students?

At least with Ben in the early years, all we had to do was look at Clampett to see how it should be done. Ben had Bobby in his hip pocket to point to, and he used him as a reference all the time. It gave credibility to what he was saying in a big way, in a huge way. There was no inconsistency in the message. Bobby does this, Bobby does that, and when Bobby was putting well, we all believed he could beat Nicklaus, Watson, Langer, or anyone the world could throw at him. That’s why the cult grew so big, and Ben’s following still has clout even to this day to some degree.

Take Mac O Grady, he was both the teacher and the poster child.
Their was a time when nobody hit is as good as Mac… and for a while he had half the PGA tour working with him while he was on tour! It’s almost comical really. He could really demonstrate it himself, and that can make a believer out of people really fast.

I had a long talk with Sam Randolph a couple weeks ago, who was a good friend of mine from Junior golf days, we are the same age and both grew up in Southern California. For those who don’t know the name, he won the Junior World title, was a four time All American, Collegiate player of the year, won the US Amateur, and won on the PGA Tour right out of college. He was a guy who had his sights on being the best ever, and he felt that he needed to get a little bit better so he could dominate on the PGA Tour as he had at the amateur levels. He sought out the help of people like Hank Haney,
Ledbetter, Peter Costis, and so forth. These were the guys who supposedly knew the golf swing.

Sam holds to this day that he made the right decision to seek help,
he wasn’t TGM or a technically inspired player, so he had to trust
the so called experts. The problem with these experts is that they
never explained to Sam why he was as good as he was. Sam was a hitter and had a great natural home made and extremely effective action. These different instructors had some kind of model in their heads that everyone should swing like Mark O Meara or whoever.
Sam made a great point to me in our conversation in that these so called experts just couldn’t answer his questions, questions like “why am I in the bunker and not 10 feet from the pin like I used to be?

I’ll take a lesson from Ledbetter or Haney when they can take me out on the course and kick my ass and show me how to do it much better than I do now.. or if they speak the same language such as TGM, then we can talk theory and the application of law that is based on objective things like physics and geometry, not smoke and mirrors, or personal opinion or preferences.