Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

I thought Jeff was banned.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Brownman

I am glad that you liked my diplomatic reply. I disagree 100% with LP’s explanation, but I don’t feel the need to incite controversy by explaining why I think that he is totally wrong. Most forum members like his explanations, and forum members are perfectly entitled to harbor their personal biased opinions.

Jeff.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Great post Lag,good reply Jeff

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Play well and have fun in the event!

Keep your focus on the target on the golf course..

Aim it, feel it in the body, commit to that feeling, execute, live with the results..

Topic: How do I know if my right shoulder is moving correctly?

66,

I did the flashlight drill & believe me was I shocked when I learnt where the real path to impact was. My body & hands still fight with my brain every time I play. Hopefully, I will master it & one day play off scratch.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Lag,

I travelled out of state for the holidays and then drove 15 straight hours yesterday (never much fun if your 6’2”), arriving home late last night, so the body was a little out of synch today. Hadn’t touched a club in over a week but hit a small bucket this afternoon using the same hitting thoughts you’ve been discussing and came right out of the gate “striping” it. More testimony to how well the hitting motion “travels”.

Our last 2-day event of the year starts Saturday. I plan to get some hitting practice in over the next few days and put it through some “tournament pressure testing” this weekend. I’ll incubate on what I’m feeling (and how it compares to my swinging procedure) and post on it after the weekend. I’m still absorbing those feelings and trying to get “clarity” on what they translate to “for me”.

Robbo

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

lagpressure

Thank you for expressing your opinions in a detailed post.

Jeff.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

It’s ok..

Jeff has asked some good questions here..

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Jeff, If you go study the Doyle camp or the McHatton camp, who both studied directly under Homer, the arms seperating from the body post impact is what has to happen for a true, pure, CF throw out action to happen. If you keep your arms tight on the body, you are re routing the swing plane into an entirely different protocol. You slow the clubhead down by pulling it out of it’s true expanding intentions. As soon as you interfere with this CF action, you are introducing hitting.

Now remember, we could argue this till the cows come home, but I was Doyle’s second from the top protege’ right behind Clampett, when this stuff first hit the conciousness of the golfing public in the late 70’s early 80’s. I had full ride scholarship offers from everyone, BYU, Holder, all the TGM schools.. Why? I was doing it.. and better than anyone at the time other than Clampett who was just turning pro. I learned it, applied it, felt it in the body, and lived it. Believe me my friend, I know what I’m talking about.

There is a purity in swinging that doesn’t exist in other forms. Think of it this way.. Pitch black or total darkness comes in only one way. It’s the absence of light of all light. As soon as you introduce a pin hole of light, it’s no longer dark. As soon as you introduce any light to a dark room in permeates. Swinging is like the purity of a perfectly dark room. Unmanipulated in any way. As soon as you offer up any manipulation to a true CF, you lose it to some degree.

Automatic release means just that. NO manipulation. Just law, geometry and physics doing their thing. Seeking an inline position at the true lowpoint. The toe of the club weighs more than the heel, and it too seeks that inline position.

The arms are free to move away from the body after impact.
Forcing them or pinning them into the body post impact manipulates the path of the shaft from it’s expansive intentions. If the arms fly off the body in this way, the right arm is just pulled into an inline position via CFnot any thrusting or muscular straightening. The wrists want to fully roll over against a FLW if you don’t add any manipulation.

It’s my belief that swinging can only truly exist in it’s pure form. Hitting has lots of forms. I have no choice but to take this to the grave because I actually lived it. You can’t unknow something.

True swinging is like a beautiful glass sculpture spinning on a gyroscope, it’s a thing of beauty and elegance. But if you mount it in the back of a pick up truck (on the road), you might (will) have problems.

So what’s the problem? True swinging makes two HUGE assumptions of the human body.

1. Free flexible wrists that won’t in any way manipulate.
2. A PERFECTLY steady and even acceleration offered up by the torso.

Proof for Hogan?
easy… right from the horses mouth.. “I wish I had three right arms!!”
More proof? find a close up of the veins popping out of his forearms post impact. This is not the product of dead noodle like arms via a swingers protocol.

The best proof? me..
I went from from dead hands to active hands.. to get the clubshaft to change course from P3 to P4 you have to activate them deliberately with drive loading via the #2 and #3 and #4 post impact.

Lynn Blake vs Hogan? can I see down the line shots from behind?
A frontal comparison has much less verification of hitting vs swinging intentions. I’d bet the farm Lynn’s post impact action doesn’t look anything like Hogans. Show me a comparison between Hogan and Lynn Blake (video not posed) from behind post impact just prior to P4 and we can continue this conversation.

The best comparison to show would be Bobby Schaeffer from behind, vs Hogan. Shaeff releases it in true swingers CF action.
Hogan cuts it left. Who’s better?

It’s not just flat shoulders that cut it left. It’s all of the above.

My own shoulders turn flatter than Hogan’s but I’m not nearly as tightly packed as Hogan. That’s why I don’t hit it as good as Hogan.
I miss one or two fairways a round, Hogan, one or two a month.
The days I’m faster with my hands actively, faster with the left hip, tighter through the ball, the better I hit it.. simple.

What do you mean by that statement – are you referring to the effectiveness of controlling the direction of clubhead movement post-impact or the effectiveness of powering the golf swing? How can the pivot-drive’s “effectiveness” during the followthrough phase of the swing affect clubhead speed pre-impact?

Yes and Yes, and speed of club pre impact by post impact pivot activity? It’s called acceleration. The effects of acceleration move backwards. It leaves it’s footprint in the sand, pre impact with a pre stressed clubshaft.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Lag,

Don’t fall for the evidentiary proof routine. Your view is just wonderful for us to see.

What you do is fresh, energetic and insightful. Don’t get bogged down by dreary hairsplitting questions. There is no end to it.

Topic: How do I know if my right shoulder is moving correctly?

66,

I understand you battle and everyone else’s. I was there for 30 years. What a joke, making a living playing golf with the worlds best golfers and hitting the ball like a 10 hcp. The way out is not well understood especially by those who have never had the trouble. They are trying to fix the opposite problem of too much draw. Too much on the inside, too much release for maximum accuracy. Most of the writing is not suited to blokes like you and the me, in the past.

I noticed you said your arms and hands were on plane. I suspect you missed what I said about keeping the hands and CLUBHEAD on plane.

Trying to learn shaft control with your shoulders can’t be done well.

Sure there is an ideal shoulder plane and you could do that perfectly and still flip it left because the shaft was not slotted correctly.

People get a shock when they see where the head really has to come from.

If you do what Guru says with the torches very seriously you will see a whole new world, and find you shoulder plane.

Check it every month because you will be only scratching the surface for the first 6 months. It will improve instantly but keep pushing it ‘till the end. It will go no further.

All the best.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

lagpressure – thanks for commenting.

You wrote-: “First would be an automatic release, which would require “dead” hands, in which case you would see a full roll release with the arms separating from the body, swingers stuff.”

I don’t know what you mean by arms separating from the body. If you are saying that the arms would move outwards towards the ball-target line, I don’t understand why that should happen in a swinger who has an automatic release – if he continues to rotate his torso well thus maintaining the arc of rotation of the shoulder sockets.

You wrote-: “Or you could use a non automatic release where the wrists make a strong deliberate “rip” into impact via an “active” #2 and #3 in a firm unison. I’m not talking gravity stuff here, intense muscular thrusting. Now when you do this, you see a totally different path of the clubhead post impact. Look at Hogan and Senior, and how their hands appear to cut left after impact.”

You are implying that the fact that Hogan’s hands move quickly around to the tush line post-impact is due to an active release of PA#2/3 and that the golfer must be drive loading through impact. That’s a theory – do you have any evidentiary support for your theory? I think that Hogan’s hands move back quickly to the tush line post-impact because he continues to rotate his torso very actively around to the left post-impact and that torso action moves the left shoulder socket back around to the tush line more than can be seen in swingers who have less open shoulders during the followthrough phase of the swing.

Have you ever seen Lynn Blake’s swing? He looks like Hogan.

You can see his swing comparing himself to Hogan at

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/cmps_index.php?page=multimedia

You will probably need to register to see his swing video. Lynn Blake can hit or swing and he states that when he is swinging (like Hogan) that he is not drive loading, and that he only drive loads when he uses his hitting action.

You wrote-: “because the the further the left shoulder moves in distance away from the ball post impact, the greater the effectiveness of the pivot.”

What do you mean by that statement – are you reffering to the effectiveness of controlling the direction of clubhead movement post-impact or the effectiveness of powering the golf swing? How can the pivot-drive’s “effectiveness” during the followthrough phase of the swing affect clubhead speed pre-impact?

Jeff.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

So when a swinger is off, what exactly is letting him down? I would have thought an automatic release was more reliable than a non-automatic for example.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

I refer to swinging in it’s purest sense, in that a pure swinger only pulls.
Zero right arm active participation. The right arm of the swinger should stay bent all the way down to P3 and it only straightens by the outward throwout action of centrifugal force. It must remain effortless, totally passive, non involved. As soon as you start to activate the right arm, or add any active participation of the right hand #3 rotation, or non automatic rotation into impact, you are hitting. This is where people get confused. I think within the TGM world, you will have a lot of differences in opinion as to where one starts and the other ends.

Greg McHatton demonstrates using a finger thumb only grip on both hands. Just the tips are used to hold the club. By doing this, you can only swing. If you try to hit, you’ll completely miss the ball. There are very few pure swingers. I suspect that most swinger- hitter armchair analyzers look at it as …. just more one way than another. I won’t call someone a swinger unless I see complete commitment to it’s principles. When someone says Tiger or Norman are swingers they would not qualify in my book. Way too much manipulation going on for my endorsement for a swinging medal of honor. I say this because I came from the most hard core swinging camp being groomed as a swinging “elitist purest” from the death camps of Ben Doyle and Greg McHatton. As much as I despise swinging now,
I completely admire both Ben’s and Greg’s relentless pursuit of golf’s ultimate pureness. When swinging is done correctly, it can be PUUUUUUURE!!!! But it is absolutely NOT grounded in anything practical if you have to get on an airplane every week… rigors of the road and all that.. never mind hold up under pressure, nerves, and when it goes south you are in deep stuff.

It will always be the topic of much debate, but I have a deep respect for the guys who can do it “swinging”.. but only in the purest sense, not the watered down version people interpret from today’s tour players.

I am probably a pretentious swinging purist at heart, or a least I will defend the guys who can do it. It’s a beautiful thing when it’s on, but I’ve never seen anyone do it with the consistency that hitting can offer.

Bobby Schaeffer had one of the purest swinging moves, and I have seen him just flush the ball so pure it’s frightening. But I have also seen him on other days hit is so sideways its equally frightening. When its’ on, it’s incredible, when it’s off it’s horrific.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

The right arm takes you up and down plane. The left is your clubface and radius control.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

These are some great questions Jeff..

However, you have also stated that Hogan was drive loading the club – especially from the 3rd parallel to impact (and presumably beyond impact). How do you know that?

For the guys that bring a huge load into the release zone (lots of lag angle) Hogan, Peter Senior.. you have two options for dealing with this. First would be an automatic release, which would require “dead” hands, in which case you would see a full roll release with the arms separating from the body, swingers stuff.

Or you could use a non automatic release where the wrists make a strong deliberate “rip” into impact via an “active” #2 and #3 in a firm unison. I’m not talking gravity stuff here, intense muscular thrusting.
Now when you do this, you see a totally different path of the clubhead post impact. Look at Hogan and Senior, and how their hands appear to cut left after impact, and quickly disappear behind their bodies from a down the line camera view. The bigger the load, the stronger, and quicker the hands have to be to literally force the clubhead out of what would be a swingers orbit. How do I know?
Just look… I personally have done it both ways, and these are totally opposing protocols for dealing with a moving golf club. I’ll take Hogan’s or Senior’s move anyday over someone trying to “time” their release of a longitudinal dump with such an extremely loaded P3 alignment.

I even found one post where you stated that virtually all tour players are hitters. How do you know that fact?

Maybe I should rephrase that.. all the great ones.. and I mean the guys that don’t have to hit 8 million golf balls to keep their game in shape. VJ is a swinger, and he is scared to death to take a day off.
I don’t blame him. The guys that impressed me the most while I was on tour, Faldo, Woosnam, Price, Norman, Senior, O’Grady, Pavin. All hitters. All the swingers were much more on and off, week in week out. The guys I mentioned played the game on just one front… putting. They wouldn’t have to wait for both planets (putting and ball striking) to line up for a win.

In one post you stated that you release PA#1 from the top of your swing and then implied that you supplied more power via the pivot at a later stage in the swing. How does a pivot-drive supply more power later in the downswing after you have released PA#1?

PA#1 is the most miss understood thing in the golf swing. Hitting is not just a right arm hit with little pivot action. You could use just the right arm to hit little wedge shots, or chips, but the greats know that to maximize the rotation of the torso, it need to turn flat. Why? because the the further the left shoulder moves in distance away from the ball post impact, the greater the effectiveness of the pivot.
The right arm should never actually start the downswing, but as soon as the pivot gets things going, the right arm must move or straighten much quicker than people think, to keep the shaft low and behind if the shoulders are turning level or flat. The right arm is helping the club build momentum, but it’s bigger purpose is keeping the clubshaft onplane. If you don’t believe me, trying to hit a golf ball straight with a bent right arm on the downswing with flat shoulders.
It’s only going one way.. LEFT and PULLED.

You don’t want to completely unload #1, but it’s a good idea to save some some for post impact. If you can freeze the right arm at about 120 degrees from P3 to about 4:30 post impact (looking straight on at the player) would be ideal. Straightening the right arm through impact closes the clubface, and hitter’s don’t want that. The key to having an effective angle hinge is to hit with a frozen right arm from P3 to just past impact. Now of course swingers are all about getting to both arms straight, and that’s why you see the full roll stuff. The swinger’s rubbery arms just seek that position in the centrifugal way, as they should.. Hitters resist it for all the right reasons.

So what does the pivot do? Look at these fast left hips, that of course opens the gate for the torso to rotate quickly post impact and keep the body accelerating and applying pressure onto the shaft via the #4 pressure point. This is God’s stuff, but it’s what separates the good from the great. You could never do this too much, and the closer you get, the better you strike it, and the skies open up with the golden rays of golfing enlightenment.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Golfur66,

By increasing your “true lag pressure” through impact, you can grip it as tight as you want with all the benefits of support and structure.

I can’t imagine you’re a hitter if your right hand is dangling on the club.
This is left side, passive right arm swingers stuff.

Without seeing your swing, I would suspect that your right thumb “wants” to get involved for good reason. You’re more than likely having swing plane issues, so it is trying to aid, help out with some compensation stuff. If you really had the shaft “on plane” from P3 to P4, I doubt you would be having issues with these sensations in the fingers of the right hand.

If you’re sold on swinging, go right to a swing plane x ray.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

LagPressure

I have just read this entire thread for the first time concentrating on your posts.

I can readily accept the fact that you are a hitter if you state that you are drive loading the club in the downswing.

However, you have also stated that Hogan was drive loading the club – especially from the 3rd parallel to impact (and presumably beyond impact). How do you know that?

I even found one post where you stated that virtually all tour players are hitters. How do you know that fact?

In one post you stated that you release PA#1 from the top of your swing and then implied that you supplied more power via the pivot at a later stage in the swing. How does a pivot-drive supply more power later in the downswing after you have released PA#1?

Jeff.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Less feel does not equate to less lag. Just less feel of the lag?

Tight fingers but loose wrists is what Homer suggested. ie our hands are clamps. Our wrists allow for the zip of the uncocking action and #3 Accumulator roll.

Topic: How do I know if my right shoulder is moving correctly?

66: Go grab your flashlights and make all the shoulder motions you can think of while attempting to say on plane. You will come up with the motion you are after and be able to reverse engineer where your shoulders are moving to and from. This is the only feel you will really ever need once you become aware of what “it” is.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

I believe Fred Couples at one time, and I think VJ both have right hands that are not fully attached to the club at impact. It can be done
if the the right hand is totally passive and just monitoring. It’s really amazing what the brain can come up with for compensations.

I remember having similar sensations back in my swinging days. Knowing what I know now, I couldn’t imagine wanting to feel that again.
It’s true that for a swinger, the right thumb doesn’t have much function.
Your not alone with this sensation. I would actually see this as a good sign that you are swinging with good intentions.

I had a teammate in High School that had a perfect grip at address, but at the top with a nice flat left wrist his clubface was skyward. He couldn’t get any height on his shots, just trapped everything, low skidders. We finally figured out that he actually would twist the clubshaft in his hands on the way back into this shut position. Even he didn’t know he was doing this… amazing..

It took him about six months to fix it, and he later went on to get a college scholarship.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Heh, I know I said I was going to be away, but I couldn’t resist.
Try hitting, drive loading, right hand only, thumb off the grip.
Left arm just measures the proper radius.
You can use the palm of the right hand to monitor lag if you want.

Now I’m gone.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Agreed. Firm grip, oily wrists.
Again I say, there’s no reason for the right thumb to be on the grip, hitter or swinger. You’ve not yet told us why you need it on the grip, or I forgot where you said that. Leave it off if you’re puring it.
What’s it doing? Limiting the travel in the backswing, at top? You don’t have it on top of the shaft do you? Move it to the fore side.
Right elbow bend, extensor action can do that for you. Drive loading if you’re a hitter can do that. According to Dart, it feels like the backswing is very short. Start the drive sooner.
All above my unauthorized opinion.

New computer just came in the door. I’ll be away for awhile. Carry on.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Often people will have a loose grip with one hand or another because their hands are not properly educated to sense and monitor true swing plane through impact. Swingers are often likely to have light grips because it is soooooo important that nothing interferes with the centrifugal force throw out action that must be carefully monitored all the way down. Any tightening of the fingers on the downswing can interfere with the passiveness that must happen to truly swing correctly.

This is all great as long as you PURE it..

Off center clubface hits with a light grip lack the support that firm hands can offer to fight any torquing of the clubface. It does happen.

I like the idea of having both hands firmly on the club for this reason.
I don’t want anything changing, if for whatever reason I start gripping tighter. I want my hands to know exactly what to do if TIGHTER happens.

I’m not interested in feeling helpless on the golf course, or feeling like I have to PUUUUUUURE it everday to keep the ball on the short grass.

Topic: Let's Talk GOLF MACHINE!

Golf School Article “Keep the Left Arm Straight” describing extensor action? Feel it in the right palm base of the lifeline instead?

Lag can be monitored with any pressure point or combination of pressure points you like. Left heel pad is not one of the pressure points. Use right forearm takeaway.
Palm of the right hand, last 3 fingers of the left hand, crook of the right index finger. Hitters typically use 1 and 3 together. Swingers typically use 3 and maybe 2 also. Palm of the right hand is used to monitor extensor action, really just a modest attempt to always try to straighten the right arm. The left arm won’t let it straighten until it’s time.
For convenience and universal applicability, we refer to the “lag pressure point” as PP#3, the crook of the index finger.