Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Full roll (HH), no roll (AH) or reverse roll (VH) are the 3 feelings.

An Angled hinge is the middle one. It Feels like nothing much is going on at all. Face closes but not as rapidly as for a HH.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

The Pivot rotates, the left arm rotates with it, which closes the face.

So for a hitter, there is no active hingeing action, it just happens if the hands and pivot are in sync…?

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Something that it has taken me a while to get about the frozen right wrist is that it is not the source of the angled hinge for hitting – the hinge is purely a left hand action. I have been trying to use the frozen right wrist to drive the angled hinge through impact!

Maybe that is part of why I’m blocking them out right?

The Pivot rotates, the left arm rotates with it, which closes the face. If the pivot is racing around faster than the hands – lets call it the hands getting left behind and having to catch up – then the left wrist (clubface) is left slightly open. Ball blocks right.

We really want to hit the ball a dimple or two on the inside aft quadrant of the ball. That is the impact point. At separation it needs to be square to where we want the fly. Remember we are swing the club around in an arc towards low point. The ball sets up behind low point so the club is traveling down and out, not straight along the intended flight line. If you attempt this you will be Steering and that is a cardinal sin.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Thanks for the thoughts, Weebix. That hard vs pressure thought was clarifying for me…..

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

It seems like there is a fine line to tread between pressure and action, especially through the ball, or when wanting to hit it hard.. any thoughts on that from you or anyone?

There was a post by Lag or Shome a few days ago where he talked about laying up with I think a 2i, just smoothing it up there, and hit the longest 2i he’d ever hit.

I remember a couple of time when I’ve been laying up off the tee because of water or a bunker in the middle of the fairway and have played to come up 25m short and ended up almost putting it in the hazard because it goes so long.

For me the lesson is that hard is not long. And from what I’ve been reading about TGM maybe I could also add that HEAVY is long. Lag always talks about accelarating to feel like the clubhead is fastest AFTER impact. And that is also (I think) about sustaining pressure from transition to finish (both arms straight after impact). So pressure IS hard, it IS long. So the action must be about developing pressure, not about trying to create action apart from pressure. But this is very new for me so I could be completely wrong! And am happy to be told so.

In a way I’m thinking that maybe the feeling of going hard through impact, or creating action through impact is often the cause of throwaway. I suspect that Junior is trying to teach us about some specific actions at specific instances that create higher clubhead speed that could go against this. I also suspect that these actions would require very good timing to pull off. For example you can accelarate a shaft by pulling on the top of it and pushing at a point under that. This will flip the end of the shaft very quickly. But timing those sort of opposing forces is an advanced technique I expect.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Loren, Thanks for the overview again…

Some good thoughts to chew on…

It seems like there is a fine line to tread between pressure and action, especially through the ball, or when wanting to hit it hard.. any thoughts on that from you or anyone?

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

1 – base of palm of right hand on the left thumb, right elbow bend
2 – last 3 fingers of the left hand, wrist cock
3 – right forefinger, meaty part of first joint, shaft angle in grip
4 – left arm to chest connection, body power

These correspond to the 4 power accumulators which are loaded by moving them to an out-of-line condition. Their power “release” is allowing them or driving them to seek their in-line conditions. Pressure points sense, they are not active. The #3 pressure point is commonly used to sense lag pressure although any combination of them could be used. The goal is a steady lag pressure.

1 – bend in the right elbow, active for hitter, passive/ active for swinger, i.e. non-accelerating. It’s either driven out or thrown out. It can be done neither until the leash of the left arm allows it, i.e. the hands move away from the right shoulder.
2 – left wrist cock
3 – transfer power or “roll” accumulator, the angle of the shaft in the left hand grip. It’s never out of line. It seeks to stay in line with the underneath part of the left forearm, the vertical plane of motion of wrist cock. If it doesn’t you’ve lost the flat left wrist, or have too much arch. Better the latter.
4 – pivot or body power, left arm to chest connection. The “flywheel” the right shoulder drives for the swinger as body power, “or as initial acceleration of the hitter’s loaded power package.” (3-M-4)

And while we’re at it.
3 imperatives: flat left wrist (through impact), trace a straight plane line, with a lag pressure point
With those you control the clubface, the clubshaft and the clubhead, through three stations, address, top and finish.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Thanks Weetbix, that was great. I only found the part where they talked about the trailing index finger pressure, but that alone was great!
The continuing pressure on that point speaks volumes to how I see the swing. It’s interesting how different interpretations of the correct action overlap. I see the swing as two centrifuges centered over two different centers. In the backswing it’s centered over the head of the rear femur. It’s then shifted to the leading femur head(or left for righties) for the through swing. When people talk about keeping a steady head I think to myself that there are two heads you have to keep steady!
Anyway, in a centrifuge the energy travels from the centre outwards, and is always increasing as it moves, propelling whatever is inside it to the outside edge(in the golf swing, that would be everything up from that femur head increasing exponentially all the way to the toe of the club-an important distinction, I think, from the full club head) This continual lagging pressure in the contact point in the trailing index finger is a beautiful continuation of this internal acceleration traveling outward. The value of the index finger of the lead hand is equally important I think. It must trail the rest of the fingers on that hand- a thought that I’ve had for some time now, and I was thinking that that may have been the final conscious link in the chain. But I’ve been wondering about the value of the rear hand a lot lately, and after reading that, and getting a feel of it with a club, I can see, and more importantly I think, feel, that they form a strong bond in the action of acceleration.
Ultimately I think it’s imperative to lead from the inside out until at least after impact(you can call it lag, compression, shaft lean, flying wedges, or whatever, but it’s all the same utilization of internal to external force) The acceleration of the club moves the ball, but the correct acceleration of the club moves the ball correctly.
I can go on a bit when I get excited about a discovery, but I just love the game….
I’m still interested in hearing more about the different pressure points…
B

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Something that it has taken me a while to get about the frozen right wrist is that it is not the source of the angled hinge for hitting – the hinge is purely a left hand action. I have been trying to use the frozen right wrist to drive the angled hinge through impact!

Maybe that is part of why I’m blocking them out right?

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

BOM – there’s an entry at GolfLagTips.com on the four pressure points. It’s not in depth except for #3, but it’s something.

Stinky, I think that is a great thought. And the idea of aiming the hands at 4.30 works for me much better than thinking of the clubhead coming in at 4.30. That idea just freaks me out. But the hands coming down and out at the 4.30 point makes more sense because I can imagine the clubhead swinging around in response and hitting 3 o’clock (or 3.05!)

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Ok, 4.30 again, sorry, here is a quote from Lag Sep 9 2008 that clears it up for me.

The hands MUST appear to move toward the inside quadrant of the ball. I like to think of 4:30 on the ball. Whether we swing or hit, the hands rotate the #3 accumulator (from open hands to square) into the impact area. So if the hands aim at 4:30 the clubhead will swing around and smack the back of the ball at 3:00..
If you aim the hands at 3:00 you will be OTT and the clubhead will smack the ball at 1:30 leaving you with a pull or slice. If you want to
draw the ball you might have to get those hands aiming at 5:00 so the clubhead hits at 3:30 so the ball can start a bit right of the target line. (I’m slightly simplifying this to avoid the initial impact and closing allowed for separation tolerances, for you die hards, add .15 minutes to all my clock calculations)

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

QUESTION:
Can someone explain to me, or tell me where to go to find out about the pressure points in the grip? I read Junior talking about them(pp2 and pp3 etc.) a but but I’m not familiar with them. I searched around in the instruction area but didn’t come up with much….
Thanks…...

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Yeah,it’s a concept to neutralise OTT which is a natural instinct like throwaway.

95% of beginning golfers come OTT.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Stinky has been with me a long time. Wrote that other post after I saw yours Dap,,,

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Ok, what about the line that the shaft comes in at? Sure the face hits it there no doubt. I’m well out of my depth but isn’t the 4.30 concept one of approach to the ball not where you actually contact the ball??

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Player is talking about exactly what I was saying to Golfur66 yesterday about actively hinging away from the ball causing the opposite coming into it. The way he showed what Hogan did away from the ball is what I was getting at- it sets physics up to work for him. I feel kind of clever now that I saw that- thanks Stinky… I call you Stinky coz that used to be my nickname, not to be rude!

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

You may need to feel like you swing in from 4.30 to get the above condition.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

This is where you need to contact the ball for a straight shot.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Ok, try this, just before P3 in this vid of Lag, just before or right on the 11 sec mark, from above club at 4.30??? Into P3 on plane? What a great swing too, just excellent stuff. Coming from the inside,,,, from 4.30? Someone stop me, I’m obsessed, still wet from my hit in the rain today.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Found this though, Player on Tiger, interesting, I think this is what I mean, coming from the inside??

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Yeah I’m getting 4.30 now I think. Lag might help but it seems that around P3 the shaft may be more toward 4.30 than 3, does that make sense? ie, the handle pointing towards the 4.30 line of ball?

Keen newbie to the game, now obsessed.

You are not really hitting 4.30.It’s just a feel that stops you coming too outside in.

If you really are hitting 4.30 on the ball you will be hitting huge hooks and pushes.

To hit a straight shot,the strike is about one degree or so inside.Much less than a dimple.More like 3.05 not 4.30.

Scientific reality and feel don’t speak the same language.

I see it now as coming to/at the ball FROM 4.30, by the time the ball is struck I assume that due to the uncocking and rolling etc the face hits the ball fairly squarely or as you say 3.05? Didn’t Lag post a picture somewhere of some great from behind/above that showed their approach line? Was it Player?? I just can’t find it? HELP Lag!
Anyhow for me I might bow out, too much info not enough skill.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Loren
Yeah, I don’t think that “flat left wrist” description can be clarified enough in teaching- it really is very misleading.
So then do you see a constant slight cupping(neutral bend) in the left wrist all the way through impact? It’s something that’s showing up more and more in the younger players, Sergio and McIlroy to name two. It confused me for a long time. When you look at them and others from a sort of 3/4 frontal view, it looks as if they are slapping it in a way, but the quality of their striking is so pure. And McIlroy in particular takes very little divots. They operate with lag for sure, but it’s far more rotational and the bowing under of their right wrists just can’t be denied- and I did try to deny it! Again, this seems to be more prevalent in the younger more athletic generation of players(the above plus Anthony Kim etc.) It could be a change in psychology as much as anything else- they’re not thinking of controlling it, just giving everything every time! The whole picture of hands ahead doesn’t work for most people because they miss that rotational aspect of it through the ball. Face on:Ahead. DTL:turning left. You guys seem to have that in your picture which is cool.
The other thing about hitting is that that overriding of centrifugal force that you were talking about probably speaks in part to why hitters hit it a bit shorter on average. Not using harnessing and using that force is quite a loss I think…
Thanks for you thoughts…
B

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

BOM, I agree with you that the flat left wrist is not visually flat. I wrote a post on that in some thread, maybe called Flat Left Wrist, don’t remember.
It’s flat with fingers extended but if you make a fist and insert a club into that grip, the knuckles stick out. It’s neutral, neither bent nor arched and precisely at the place where you can anatomically get maximum wristcock without obviously bending it back and off plane.
So to me there’s a little visual indentation in the back of the anatomically flat left wrist at the top.
By the way, the grip is taken in impact position to get correct alignments, flat, level, vertical, slightly open for swinger, square for hitter. But Impact is not a station. There should be no conscious alteration of any part of the swing due to the condition of impact. It just happens.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Centrifugal force, defined in TGM to be the effort of the swinging clubhead to pull the primary lever assembly, both left arm and club into a straight line. The example is the flail. A handle with an attached swingle that comes into line at the bottom of the radius with smooth acceleration and stays in line up through finish if you don’t manipulate the handle in follow-through.

The swinger is totally dependent on ability to manipulate or control/use the effects of the centrifugal force. The hitter overrides it, or stays just ahead of it. It’s called “throw-out” for the swinger, “drive out” for the hitter.

What we call Extensor Action, the conscious (light effort) to straighten the right arm at all times, kept in check by the tether of the inert left arm, gives the necessary infrastructure for support through impact. The Golf School article Keep the Left Arm Straight explains it. There’s no tension in the left arm. It just measures radius.

The right forearm controls the plane by tracing the base line with the knuckle of the right index finger, in both directions, or by directing said knuckle at aiming point on the ball, a few dimples into aft-inner quadrant. The key to the system is “hands-controlled pivot”. Educate the pivot, educate the hands, the educated hands control the educated pivot. But they are just educated clamps holding the club. The pivot or active right elbow drives them, triceps in the latter case.
“Monitor the hands, not the clubhead.” Homer Kelley.

What guru is referring to is that if you uncock the flat left wrist in the vertical plane of motion of the left arm (turned to place shaft and sweetspot on the clubshaft plane), that is downward in a left wrist knifelike karate chop, from top or somewhere in the middle, or late, centrifugal force will throw it out, resulting in down, out and through and you can’t be unbending the bent right trying to go forward at the same time. We get in trouble when we try to hit at the ball, on a square path, squarely toward the target. It doesn’t work.
We get clubhead throwaway, flat right wrist, bent left, loss of power, mishits, misdirection, even digging it into the ground fat. And the heck of it is, you can’t feel it except in extreme cases. The subconscious makes subliminal compensating moves with loss of power.
See the Interview with Lynn Blake in the Golf School articles.

So in that regard the key is “hit down”, then out and through will take care of themselves, ‘cuz you can’t go down and forward at the same time. Left to itself the sweetspot will tend toward the plane of the turning shoulder.

Topic: Frozen Right Wrist

Loren…..

Thanks for the overview. I’m still learning about this stuff but it’s certainly not for the faint of brain, if that’s phrase.

How to you guys see centrifugal force acting on the arms and hands in acceleration? It seems that the levers are assumed to have a rigidity that the arms don’t have. Can you explain TGM’s thoughts on that? I’m thinking in terms of arm plane during acceleration….

The Guru was saying that as long as you keep a FLW on the way down then the right wrist has no chance of unhinging. That FLW seems like a big IF to me…

I like the concept of the wedges through impact but there has to be movement in them surely. How do you guys see that?