Topic: 420 - 440m

Wilksie,

Have you got a new job?

Topic: 420 - 440m

C’mon people where’s the love? I think Wilksie’s developing a bloody good sense of humor!

Keep it up.

MM

Topic: 420 - 440m

No, see the key is to have no options, to force the 3 iron from the tee, to force the 210m approach shot for ALL players….. its a great leveler. Must be ball loseable rough or it just wont work.

I think golfers like options. I would hate to be forced into an iron off the tee on a 400m+ hole, regardless of par. A short par 5 is classic risk/reward – and if the risk can really burn the golfer then all the better.

Put a pit of underfed crocs in at about the 220-250m mark.

Topic: 420 - 440m

I’ve always wondered if you could build a hole with the green set obliquely to the fairway so that the further you drove the ball the harder the approach would be. In other words the green sets up with a nice wide opening for a shot from say 150m but the further you drive it (and make it look really open and attractive from the tee) the worse the angle becomes so that from say 75m you are playing over bunkers to a green sloping away. All this would mean that the fairway actually would run at an angle to the green, never really at it and Wilksie’s “gap with crap” would be required between the driving zone and the area around the green. My guess is that a lot of the big bombers would just smash it off the tee every time and bitch about how impossible the approach was rather than working oout that you needed to position the tee shot.

JJ

Topic: 420 - 440m

Must be ball loseable rough or it just wont work.

What if you made it out of bounds?

Topic: 420 - 440m

What about a fairway pot around the 220-240m mark, such as the 3rd/4th/5th? (can’t remember) at Hope Island. Not big enough to cut the fairway in half, but with enough room either side or over if you’re gutsy enough.

No, see the key is to have no options, to force the 3 iron from the tee, to force the 210m approach shot for ALL players….. its a great leveler. Must be ball loseable rough or it just wont work.

Topic: 420 - 440m

Jeffrey, only dead trees.

Topic: 420 - 440m

G69, Put a fairway break in at about 230m from the back tees then restart the fairway again at 300 so it cant be reached (with lots of ball loseable rough in between), a very tightly bunkered green so no one will go for it in two from 210m out will complete the picture (although water in front of the green and behind would be better). With a length of about 440m it will play as a par 5 and be forever admired as a progressive means of countering the ridiculous length players can drive the ball today……..

But can you do that if it’s the only hole that has a fairway break? Wouldn’t it be out of character with the rest of the course if it’s the only one? Bonnie Doon is a course that uses breaks effectively, although generally only between fairway and green.

What about a fairway pot around the 220-240m mark, such as the 3rd/4th/5th? (can’t remember) at Hope Island. Not big enough to cut the fairway in half, but with enough room either side or over if you’re gutsy enough.

Topic: 420 - 440m

Just build a replica of the Gobi desert like this one across the river 69er…..

(click on the minute thumbnail above people – another forum bug….)

Topic: 420 - 440m

8 Nash old?

Topic: 420 - 440m

G69, Put a fairway break in at about 230m from the back tees then restart the fairway again at 300 so it cant be reached (with lots of ball loseable rough in between), a very tightly bunkered green so no one will go for it in two from 210m out will complete the picture (although water in front of the green and behind would be better). With a length of about 440m it will play as a par 5 and be forever admired as a progressive means of countering the ridiculous length players can drive the ball today……..

Excellent stuff.

Topic: 420 - 440m

Put a fairway break in at about 230m from the back tees then restart the fairway again at 300 so it cant be reached (with lots of ball loseable rough in between)

I’ll pay that :)

Topic: 420 - 440m

Wilksie are you taking the piss?

Topic: 420 - 440m

Wilksie. You left out the bit about the tree in the middle of the fairway.

And the potato chip bunkers ala Kingswood..

Topic: 420 - 440m

Wilksie. You left out the bit about the tree in the middle of the fairway.

Topic: 420 - 440m

G69, Put a fairway break in at about 230m from the back tees then restart the fairway again at 300 so it cant be reached (with lots of ball loseable rough in between), a very tightly bunkered green so no one will go for it in two from 210m out will complete the picture (although water in front of the green and behind would be better). With a length of about 440m it will play as a par 5 and be forever admired as a progressive means of countering the ridiculous length players can drive the ball today….....

Topic: 420 - 440m

G69,

Nice conundrum. The only obviously correct answer if you are building a 420-440m hole is to build a fantastic 420-440m hole. If you achieve this, then you’ll have both a high quality hole that gets complimented and members do eventually accept norms a bit when outsiders and knowledgeable commentators keep reinforcing them, AND you’ll have a good par 5. At any normal club, a hole over 400m is a par 5 or 6 for 95% of the members, including 95% of the most vocal.

If anyone derides it on length alone, you could remind them of RMW’s par 5s, or better still, tell them it is a pity they’ve obviously never enjoyed watching the action at #13 at Augusta. Both of Augusta’s back nine par 5s play shorter yardage for the members than this hole will.

Topic: 420 - 440m

ask the cashmores about building forced layups.

Topic: 420 - 440m

The elephants grave yard might work. It wouldn't look too natural, but it might work.

That Riviera #5 is something though, even if it does follow the greatest par 3 in America (according to Ben Hogan) and is followed by one of the most famous (the 'donut' green). Amazing spot.

Moe

can the theoretical land have a little fall from front to back, say from at least 30 metres from the back of the green?

Benje

Topic: 420 - 440m

JB,

the land is dead flat and dry

Topic: 420 - 440m

golfer69

I have no knowledge of this theoretical piece of land, and no experience in designing a hole but, to add to some earlier thoughts and adding further to Andrew's proposal (with wider fairways though, not bottlenecked) ...

1 A hazard near the fence. I preume the aim is to make this look fearsome, and to play fearsome, so that the average punter will try to keep away. Would a back bunker with a high back lip, with flashed sand and a downhill lie in the floor do the trick? Or, are there other simpler tricks available to competent golf architects?

2. Given that an aim is to discourage balls from landing near the fence, then why not have a longish green (with some diagonal orientation as Andrew proposed) that falls from front to back. Obviously, this favours a running shot so there needs to be plenty of open area at the front of the green on the preferred line of play.

3. I assume care would be needed in building a greenside bunker, in case 'thin' shots could carry the fence. How do you achieve this? Is a deeper, steeper faced greenside bunker where only a well-hit shot can get out a possible solution? That is, any thinly struck shots might catch the face and stay in the bunker, not go across the fence and out.

4. Given the out of bounds and the road behind the green, I assume the approach bunker that Andrew proposed is out (unless it is a deep little one, as per 3 above, which I would not personally want. There are two other options for a hazard at this point. It could be a fairway mound, deflecting weak shots to the left or right. This might work if there is a less desirable approach from the bunker-free side (uneven ground, or perhaps a slightly elevated green edge that falls away from the player. The other option is a rough covered mound, perhaps quite large. I am thinking 'elephant family grave yard' here.

As a possible option, do you know Riviera's #5 hole? Change the front bunkering a little, add some front to back slope, lengthen the green a little and add the back bunker and voila, a greens complex fit for a par four and a half. It will work better if there is a downhill run towards the green. A challenge for the better player with his second shot, and for the lesser plater attempting to clear the mound with his third. Of course, if the golfer attacks from the wrong side, the problems multiply.

I have attached a couple of images of Riviera's 5th. It has elements of Philadelphia golf to it, which befits the architects upbringing (George Thomas).

Benje

Topic: 420 - 440m

QUOTE: Andrew @ May 22 2007, 09:52 PM

It’s a shame greens can’t be built up against a boundary lines anymore. There are quite a few good ones in the UK.

Thats the problem today mate. We now have safety guidelines to adhere to and if we then approve a green to be sitting too close to a boundary and some punter gets sconned guess where the finger gets pointed.

Topic: 420 - 440m

This actually sounds a lot like the par 5's at Mac Grange, some should be par 4's after being made a little shorter and a couple should be made a little longer or redesigned and made genuine par 5's.

Topic: 420 - 440m

QUOTE: golfer69 @ May 22 2007, 08:00 AM

Andrew

In an effort to stretch the hole as long as poosible we get close to a property boundary and road at the rear of the green. Will you allow me to throw a couple of bunkers back there to kill a ball from bouncing OB ?

Just as long as you don’t use containment mounds to frame the back of the green.

It’s a shame greens can’t be built up against a boundary lines anymore. There are quite a few good ones in the UK.

Topic: 420 - 440m

QUOTE: Jack @ May 22 2007, 07:33 PM

Then they should turn down the job and let someone with no moral fibre take it on instead.

Got anyone in mind?