Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Putting

QUOTE: Marylandpro @ Nov 14 2006, 10:50 AM

Actually, I do know what I'm talking about! I have read his book, read everything that he has put out for public consumption, I watched his presentation at the last PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit, and have read a lot of pros/cons out there on forums such as these as well as conferred with people with expertise on this very subject.

If Darren Clarke isn't your biggest source of evidence as to his methodologies, then who is??

Let's talk about loft for a second:-
Loft could be relative to your shoulders, in which case with a shoulders dominated stroke you are MAINTAINING the precise amount of loft throughout the stroke. With your armsy stroke you are changing the loft WHO KNOWS how much!

Now if it is relative to the ball, which is I suspect the basis for your wonderful argument, then yes, the degree of loft changes. Now do you know how much it ACTUALLY changes with a shoulder stroke COMPARED with your armsy(I like to maintain loft whatever that means) stroke?

Interestingly, the very argument you are positing may be held against you. For your arc putter, it could be MORE difficult to return to impact with the precise amount of 'intended' loft.

Of course it could be relative to the target, in which case my reasons for my preferences STILL hold ground AND I worry about what your full swing looks like.

But I guess if it 'feels' good, then you're probably right...

Andre W,

I understand what your saying. But are you saying if someone massively shuts the clubface in their (full-swing) backswing that is ok, because impact is all that matters?I like to think what I said was not ''completely useless''!
If you de-loft the putterface on the way back, guess what you have to do on the way through? The rocking of your shoulders is bio-mechanicaly incorrect. Your spine does not want to rock, that is not what it is designed to do. Constantly changing the loft in the putting stroke and rocking the shoulders is not bio-mechanically right and that is why I (try) not to putt that way.

Mary,

I did not say: you did not know what you were talking about. You have already stated: ''Am not a high handicapper...'' You may well be as your name says: ''a pro.''
If you say you have read his book etc. I'll believe you. But I find it odd you could state he promotes 4 degrees of lean? To get something so basic wrong gives me the impression you breezed through it rather than trying to understand it. But again... I am not going to argue with you whether you have read it or not. And I am going to try not to argue with you at all, because I believe there are lots of putting methods that work.
To answer your first question:
''If Darren Clarke isn't your biggest source of evidence as to his methodologies, then who is??''

The answer would be me. Which to me, matters more than whether Darren Clarke, Tiger Woods and Jay Haas are putting well. Because ultimately the information I seek out is to help me improve my game, not to find sufficient people that person has taught to back up my findings.

When I talk about loft I am talking about the putterface. If your left shoulder drops and your shoulders rock under with a straight back straight through (SBST) motion the putter face WILL de-loft. Now again, I am not saying you can not putt well like this, because there are plenty of SBST players out there. However, there is more and more research recently saying this theory is not the most consistent. Even Scotty Cameron has said that a SBST putting stroke with an always-square putter face is only possible if you putt in a purely pendulum manner - between your legs like croquet. And I do not think there are many people around more experienced than him when it comes to putting methods, putters and all things putting!
I am not puting forward an 'argument'. I am just trying to defend a method that has worked well for me, from someone who said he taught four degrees of lean.
As a matter of fact I do know degrees of change in my putting stroke. I could post the statistics if it makes you feel better?
I like to maintain loft means I like to maintain loft on the putterface. I do not like to de-loft and increase the loft of the putterface. By keeping the putter face low to the ground with an arc stroke the putterface maintains more loft than if you were to rock your shoulders under.
It seems I have either not made myself clear enough or that you have not understood what I am trying to say. You said this:

Interestingly, the very argument you are positing may be held against you. For your arc putter, it could be MORE difficult to return to impact with the precise amount of 'intended' loft.

Usually the argument against the arc putting stroke is because you are rotating the putterface open and then rotating it closed, it would be difficult to impact square. Not what you are saying which is it would be difficult to impact with the same amount of loft. Well the loft changes very little so it is much easier to do. Lets say you struck the ball with exactly 4 degrees of loft, and a square putterface. That would be great, you might hole the putt you might not. What if you struck it with 4.2 degrees loft? How much would that affect the putt? What I try to cut out is the vary in loft. You can still deloft the putterface then increase the loft and impact the same as your face at address. But why constantly change your levels and incorporate a motion that is going against what your spine is designed to do.
All in all I do not think your post made a lot of sense. You threw a few words in there without putting forth your theories. You seem to be wanting to catch people out and prove them wrong rather then helping others learn a way of putting.
Your welcome to worry about what my full swing looks like, I know I do!

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Putting

QUOTE: Marylandpro @ Nov 13 2006, 09:21 AM

If one 'massively' delofts the putter when one uses one's shoulders versus using one's arms, can you(Brew) provide a degree of difference?

'Parallel' to what??
When one uses Darren Clarke as a prime example, does that mean one has researched Darren's putting stats and seen an improvement to vindicate his work with Stan?

Releasing what precisely?
You sure it is a vertical hinge??
I disagree as much with Dave Pelz as I do with Stan Utley BTW!

I am not quite sure what you want me to prove here. It's just a matter of what happens when you rock your shoulders and keep the putterface square to the target . Your shoulders go under and the putter face goes straight back and de-lofts.
This does not mean you can't hole putts like this because you can. But I prefer to keep loft on the putterface by swinging the arms and not letting the left shoulder drop.
I am not using Darren Clarke as a prime example, I am just stating that he has taught bigger names than Jay Haas. And Darren Clarke obviously saw something he liked and seeked advice.
Saying you disagree with his methods is a little harsh, because from what you have said you don't seem to understand his teachings. If you had an understanding of what he taught then you could disagree.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Putting

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Nov 13 2006, 07:58 AM

Hey dude welcome back...

I have to agree, I have noticed a lot of the claw boys popping up now and they are keeping that putterhead low through impact.

And we should add that no one has said PARALLEL. cause that is just crazy. The nice thing about keeping that putterhead low is that it is very hard to decelerate the putter head. REAL HARD. But also it does not help someone with the yips as the right arm usually takes over.

As for ARC and STRAIGHT back and through..

At the last Srixon teaching summit in QLD early this year... there was quite a bit on this. The Pelz method of straight back and through resulted in some interesting issues with head movement that may or may not be a problem. On the other hand it was mentioned that some people use TOO MUCH of an ARC. There was even some bloke advocating the closed head inside to out swing with good results...

The end result is that both will work... but match your skills and perception to the method. Cause confidence is a MAJOR factor on the putting green. You just cannot be mechanical on the green - it will kill you.

Utley was also advocated by the Edwin school as being "the man" for short game and putting. Another reason why Wiz, Brew and myself like the method. - it matches our swing ideals.

Enjoy

Hey Virge,

I think the main advantage of keeping the putterhead low is you keep loft on the putterface. Obviously if you keep the putterface square to the target, and rock your shoulders your going to massively de-loft the putter on the backswing.
No one is talking about keeping it parallel your right.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Putting

QUOTE: Marylandpro @ Nov 13 2006, 01:19 AM

Wiz,

Sorry to say we are on opposing ends of the spectrum!
I don't believe that a 6 degrees of putter loft, coupled with a 4 degree forward lean, coupled with a descending putter head, coupled with independent arm rotation and right arm lengthening, and a decelerating tempo has much merit for teaching anyone how to putt capably, let alone consistently.

What exactly has Stan achieved from a putting standpoint?? I know about the 6 putts in nine holes. I also know about the three wack from not very far that pretty much drew the curtain on his Nationwide career a couple of years ago.

Who has he taught? Jay Haas.. Well yes. I would put to you that Jay Haas' greatest strength is his speed control. Jeff Sluman? Belly claw now.

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Take the concepts that you believe most in, and then critique them. Critique the source, the technique, and especially critique the flowery prose inevitably associated with the concept. Then, if your concepts are strong, test them, and after a while you find whether things work and whether they can be added to putting, or full swing, lore.

Mary,
I think Stan Utley is one of the best short game teachers around. He has actually taught quite a few big names that you didn't mention including Darren Clarke.
I think if you want to argue why there are not more PGA players, it may be due to the fact he considers himself a player more than a teacher and seems quite reluctant to accept his playing career is fading and his future lyes in teaching!
He doesn't teach a 4 degree lean. He thinks you should have 4 degrees of loft at impact...
According to the boffins at Scotty Cameron, 4 degrees is the ideal amount. So therefore he personally starts with 6 degrees as he decreases the loft by 2 degrees, with a slightly descending blow.
A vast majority of good putters these days, have narrow stances, do not rock the shoulders and keep the putter low to the ground. Obviously the longer the putt the higher the putter-face gets off the ground. But if the shoulders do not rock then obviously it will stay lower, than if they did.
Of course there are lots of way to get the ball in the hole, I just personally think this is a very strong concept which has worked for me.

Topic: Golf Talk / Edwin Drills - Techno version

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Jul 3 2006, 10:27 AM

Just kidding mate - wrong build for me...

Ah my bad then!

Topic: Golf Talk / Edwin Drills - Techno version

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Jul 2 2006, 10:28 AM

It was slow day !!

hmmm...!!

Topic: Golf Talk / Edwin Drills - Techno version

Virge, you have wayyyy too much free time on your hands! And anyone else for that matter that spends it dressing up in a full black outfit (balaclava and all) and then filming themselves doing some awful drills and then editing some equally awful music over it!

Topic: Golf Talk / Pga Coach of the Year

QUOTE: 333pg333 @ May 30 2006, 11:30 PM

Is it really you. You've done your time now and seen the light and went to all your brainwashing classes I am sure. Good to see you back.

Yeah just trying to limit myself to one post every two months! I've broken that already!

Topic: Golf Talk / Pga Coach of the Year

QUOTE: leighthebee @ May 29 2006, 11:03 AM

he seems to go well with the stocky players.

Good to see nothing has changed!

Topic: Golf Talk / Can Pamps keep it going?

QUOTE: Mark Westaway @ May 20 2006, 05:29 PM

go Pamps!

For sure good call, I think hell finish top 20 on money list as well

Topic: Golf Talk / Tip the Masters winner.

QUOTE: chingali @ Apr 6 2006, 04:04 PM

Winner: Vijay
Roughie: Pampling
Aussie: Pampling

Winner: Tiger
Roughie: Pampling
Aussie: Pampling

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Weight on right leg

QUOTE: andylo @ Feb 22 2006, 03:23 PM

Well recently I got this funny thing happening to me:

Swing normally and keep thin/top the shots...

Then I just have this thought that just try to swing with only my right leg then I start hitting the ball solid but of course it won't go far due to lack of weight transfer.

Try it again on both leg, thin shots again. Swing just with the right leg again and it works again.

So obviously I don't "stay behind the ball" enough I guess.

Any other thoughts?

Why dont you just start behind the ball and stay there...

Topic: Golf Talk / Flint still a GE pupil?

QUOTE: OMG @ Feb 11 2006, 08:16 PM

Cool, I thought so! I actually met him down there.

Oh yes, welcome back Brew, good to see you back!!!

Lol I am not back, I am retired!

Havn't been any interesting topics to post on but just thought I would tidy that up for you OMG!

But will leave it at that!

Topic: Golf Talk / Flint still a GE pupil?

QUOTE: TheBlade @ Feb 11 2006, 06:34 PM

I think he's only been there for about a year or so. It hasn't been a long time but I suppose you could say he's still in the stable.

He most certainly is!

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: Virge666 @ Oct 21 2005, 11:56 AM

The language is not confusing to me, I know the language pretty well. The golf swing is complex enough when a high handicap get's "Sydney Harbour Bride" and "Out to Lunch" added to the repetior. There are some funny one's that GE uses like Cindrella, (Stays too long at the ball) Titanic, (head went down, stayed down) and gladwrapped (no width and stuck).   These are decriptive and entertaining. You two are not  - you guys are just insulting and having your own little private jokes without conveying anything even remotely productive. This does not help the GE cause nor does it help your standing.

Don't know what is going on here Virge? 2 months ago you were asking me to have a look at your swing, then all of a sudden you have turned around and given me the finger!? You've developed some big head attitude.
Bearing in mind you do not even practice at the Glades I would say you have very little right to comment on a lot of the things you do. You seem to think your a level higher all of a sudden? You used to be so silent and polite now you finish every post with ''Enjoy'' as if to say here is some knowledge guys enjoy it!

You make it out that Gary uses these phrases all the time, well he doesn't maybe he did in the 2 lessons you had with him but from someone who sees him nearly everyday he doesn't. In fact only when speaking to an audience does he use them.

Apart from the odd blatantly sarcastic joke we share messing with Birdie man (who always takes it well) I dont think we have come close to insulting. If you want to share your knowledge on this forum then fine go for your life. If I want to post pictures then I will and have done more than anyone else on this forum, if I dont and I want to have a joke with Wizard, birdie or whoever I can because guess what it is an internet forum.

You seem to talk about Gary Edwin and his method too much in relation to how much you actually know.
Do some research before saying things like Luke Edwin has not got enough experience, just makes you look stupid to me. Saying Gary is a smartass on the VCD?!!?! Its just ridiculous. Do you really think he gives a **** it looks bad? He gets crap from every coach on the gold coast, he has never once been automatically handed Aussie coach of the year despite blatantly being the best coach not to mention the most successful. If you dont like the vcd, the website, luke edwin then go learn something else. The thing is its a ''cult'' method and everybody wanted a cult looking ''vcd'' but you wouldnt know that because your never here. If you want glamour and cheesy smiles go buy Gary's video with Jan Stephenson you might like that more.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

There will be rules it will be like minimum and maximum amount of words. And you cant mention or refer to any previous posts purely and simply has to be your own. Has to include drills etc. And explain whats wrong with the swing.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

Thats great. I am glad to hear your golf is going well.

I guess my only personal ''beef'' with TGM is just everybody says how good it is and how they understand the golf swing. But I have never seen any tgm guys on this forum comment on anyones swing. Which is no ones fault just I have never seen it done.

So what I would really like to do is post a random swing and then say 8 of us (birdie, densikat, guru, wizard, 333, Matt, Willow and myself) all post are opinions of what the person is doing wrong and HOW they should fix it. This would really help me understand as so far all I have heard from tgm is positions. So would anybody be up for that!?

Oh and the other thing is you guys NEVER talk about the body!

But aprt from that I have no beef!

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: birdie_man @ Oct 20 2005, 01:07 AM

Blasphemy!!!

YOU'RE WRONG AS WRONG CAN BE.  WRONG x3.  THIS IS WAR!!!!!!!!

...lol.

Haha yeah good post.

So should the book not be called: The Golfing Machine(s) plural !!?!?!?!?

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: thewizard @ Oct 19 2005, 09:35 PM

classic ...
but fact

Yes...ha ha. (cough cough)

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: iseekgolfguru @ Oct 19 2005, 06:19 PM

Understanding is through a lack of common language.  You cannot teach a method of anything to anyone if you cannot describe it.    Physics and chemistry have world wide theories as they have precise descriptions that all can follow. 

All I ask is you use this forum base language.

I agree with what you say swing wise. But what are you clearning?

You are clearing the hips.

333 Yes very good neutral post. And I know what you mean but the only reason I post what I post is because I know Gary is right and everything else is wrong.

That was a joke.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: iseekgolfguru @ Oct 19 2005, 05:43 PM

And this is why you will always fail to bring understanding to anyone.  Words very important as if you cannot talk to someone where black is black and white is white they will never get the message.

Sure Gary does not say hitter or swinger walking down a line.  He teaches how it works for him with his students.  But who many other Australian coaches get what it is that he teaches?  Why do they call him "out there"?  Because there is no common language between them for him to explain it better.

So just because you fellows wish to call one motion hitting or swinging, thats fine, but in this forum for the rest of the world hitting is right arm thrust and swinging is centrifugal force motion.  PERIOD.

So here is your challenge.  You got the book.  Talk to us using the framework that Iseek has set up.  Otherwise we spend/ no waste time going over the same stuff on semantics rather than the mechanics of the swing.

Gary is considered ''out there'' because of the method he teaches. Not because of the terminology he uses. The people that accuse him of being crazy, do not understand the method, it's not that they do not understand his terminology.

And again Gary would never categorize people into two methods. He does know a lot of ''patterns'' and that is why he is such a great coach.

At the end of the day swinging and hitting still come back to the start. If you get back on the backswing then you have to clear. You can't drive the right arm through if your back and under.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

Exactly.

Because at the end of the day words mean nothing. Results mean everything.

I could say Ben Hogan is a semi rotary locomotive pulse action swiper, who smashes it because he twizzles his wrists into impact!
It doesn't matter. As Gary and Wizard said there just words.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: iseekgolfguru @ Oct 18 2005, 10:13 PM

Lets go back a long time when we talked about what TGM allows for

communication of parts, movements, power sources etc with precise words.

Whilst we may within TGM discuss different ideas and sometimes disagree with each other, anyone who reads the book will be able to get those ideas easily.  This is totally unlike all other coaches who use thier own woffle which unless you are coached by them means absolutely nothing to anyone else.

I would have hoped by now that those who have the book would start to TRY and use the same terminology to describe what it is that they think they are doing.    Otherwise you are not doing justice to the method you are using...ie nobody can understand what you are saying.

If it is a tomatoe, please explain what the tomatoes are. 

You may not like it but this forum is run with TGM terminolgy as its basis so that we do not have to decipher woffle.  I get many PMs asking about it and most members appreciate knowing that a word has a particular meaning or context.    So lets try and get with the progam as its helping more people than not.

I was not having a go at the terminology just stating that it does not really mean anything.

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

So what!?

If you think that, then thats fine. If you think about it it really actually doesnt mean a thing...

Topic: Ask Golf Guru - Golf Instruction / Interview About Moe Norman

QUOTE: densikat @ Oct 18 2005, 08:46 PM

Problem with that being, the TGM guys idea of a Hitter is very different to your edwinite idea of Hitting.

We dont have an idea of hitting. We concentrate on different things.