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Don't Blame Jb


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#1 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 08:15 AM

From another article on slow play...

 

"With the golf tournament nearing its end, a camera zoomed in on two ducks on the bank behind the 18th green. Without hesitation, the announcer said the cute chicks were eggs when the last group of the day began play."

 

... the full article is at https://golfweek.com...tour-slow-play/

 

I'm probably in the minority here (as I usually am) but I not particularly critical of the rules officials for not putting JB and his group "on the clock". That is despite the inaction being pretty clear evidence of selective enforcement of rules.

 

After all, my fundamental position (despite the current rules and practices) is that referees should be just that. People to refer to. Match play referees should be there to settle rules issues referred to them by the players. Stroke play referees should be there only to provide advice when a player refers an issue to them (as distinct from waiting until after the round when the question can be put to the committee).

 

What can be done without turning rules officials into the golfing equivalent of speed cameras? Are penalty strokes the answer? If so how can players be persuaded to call slow play violations on themselves in the same way they are expected to call penalties on themselves for other breaches? What might strengthen a culture of playing without delay when it is your turn?

 

How about a prize pool for players who plays with the least cumulative delay when it is their turn? In addition to the usual prize money. Or even an annual fair play award for the fastest players. After all the PGA keeps all sorts of stats. Why not pace of play?

 

Or on the negative side perhaps the slowest measured players might lose their tour cards at the end of the season and need to go back to Q school.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 21 February 2019 - 08:26 AM.

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#2 AAA

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 08:33 AM

Does anyone actually knows what Pace of Play Policy is for the PGA Tour?



#3 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 08:47 AM

Does anyone actually knows what Pace of Play Policy is for the PGA Tour?

 

Strangely elusive on Google. The best statement I could find was secondhand at https://thegolfnewsn...-policy-108181/

 

From that article...

 

On the PGA Tour, their pace of play policy starts with an assumption that the player will abide by what's called time par, which is a course-by-course determination of how long a twosome or threesome should take to play each of 18 holes and a full round in total. The enforcement of the pace of play policy starts when a group is determined to be "out of position." That happens to the first group of a round -- on any starting tee box -- when they exceed the allotted time par. Subsequent groups are considered out of position when they exceed that allotted time per hole or reach an open par 3, or they reach an open par 4 or par 5 and haven't yet played a shot.

 

It's at that point that a rules official can put a group on the clock after informing them of the decision. It's at that point, all players in the group will be timed on each shot until they get back up to pace. In addition to group timing, a PGA Tour rules official can, at their discretion, begin timing individual players for any reason, even if the player's group is not out of position.

 

Generally speaking, players are afforded 40 seconds to play a stroke. They're allowed 60 seconds to play a stroke if they're the first to play on a par 3, first to play a second shot into a par 4 or par 5, first to play a third shot into a par 5, or the first to play around or on the putting green.

 

If a player exceeds the time allotted on any stroke, they're then informed by an official. For the first offense while being timed, they're given a warning. If they get another bad time while under watch in a single round, they get a one-stroke penalty. If they get a third bad time, they're given a two-stroke penalty. If they get a fourth bad time, they're disqualified. At the end of a round, bad times are forgotten for the purposes of penalty strokes.

 

However, players can earn fines for accumulating bad times over the course of a season. The first bad time during a season does not lead to a fine. The second bad time leads to a fine of $5,000. For every bad time after that, the fine is $10,000 per offense. Bad times in any PGA Tour event count.

 

There are also fines for being timed in the first place. The first nine times during a season that a player is in an out of position group that is being timed, the player is not fined. On the 10th time a player is in an out of position group and timed, they're fined $20,000. After that, each subsequent offense is a $5,000 fine.

 

If a player is fined for either reason, both sets of fines double the next year, and they can double each consecutive year a player is subject to a fine under the policy.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 21 February 2019 - 08:50 AM.

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#4 Shanks4ever

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 09:28 AM

Green mapping books should have been banned, governing bodies were spineless. 

 

Distance measuring devices should be allowed, watching pros and their caddies do a little mental arithmetic is boring.

 

Players should play ready golf.

 

I like Koepka's strategy, if he knows he is playing with a slow poke he deliberately plays slow for the first few holes so his group is put on the clock. The slow poke then plays at his speed.

 

Fines do nothing, owgr points and penalty shots are the only punishment they understand.

 

In the end the TV networks and sponsors will dictate whether the product is too slow and boring.


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#5 Monty85

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:16 PM

I will blame JB. What he is doing is ridiculous, just because the PGA Tour is being pathetic at putting groups/players on the clock is no excuse for how long if faffing about.

 

I'm certainly not a bandit for enforcing everyone play as fast as possible. I think shot clocks are a horrible idea and im all for playing taking time when time is needed. JB and Bryson are taking it to absolute extreme levels though and making of mockery of it.

 

There doesn't need to be any complicated solution either. Just start putting players on the clock much quicker. Sometimes groups will be 3 or 4 holes back and they still aren't being monitored. That is just ludicrous.


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#6 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:32 PM

I will blame JB. What he is doing is ridiculous, just because the PGA Tour is being pathetic at putting groups/players on the clock is no excuse for how long if faffing about.

 

...

 

I hasten to add that the subject of this topic was not my opinion. It came from the headline of the article.


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#7 Monty85

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:36 PM

I hasten to add that the subject of this topic was not my opinion. It came from the headline of the article.

 

Yeah i got that :) That comment was in relation to the title of the article.

 

Billy Horschell gets it though;

 

“ … The issue comes down to guys not being ready when it’s their turn. That’s why we play slow. Until we punish players for not being ready to play we’re never going to fix the issue.”


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#8 rogolf

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:46 PM

Yeah i got that :) That comment was in relation to the title of the article.

 

Billy Horschell gets it though;

 

“ … The issue comes down to guys not being ready when it’s their turn. That’s why we play slow. Until we punish players for not being ready to play we’re never going to fix the issue.”

I've always likened it to a stage play.  The players don't begin their pre-shot routine until the curtain goes up for their act.



#9 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:56 PM

Yeah i got that :) That comment was in relation to the title of the article.

 

Billy Horschell gets it though;

 

“ … The issue comes down to guys not being ready when it’s their turn. That’s why we play slow. Until we punish players for not being ready to play we’re never going to fix the issue.”

 

Yep. Being ready to play is the key.

 

I wonder whether players realise just how long they are taking when it is their turn. It's not pro golf I know but I've watched club players take minutes having a chat before even turning their attention to playing their shot.

 

Just as an experiment I would like to see tour pros timed without any threat of penalty and then when they do their post round TV interview have the interviewer present them with the figures and asked how they rate themselves. Or maybe providing the stats to the commentary teams so that they can have some figures to add to their commentary on pace of play.

 

Or maybe the tour and its players won't care until a sponsor complains. I see that shorts are now allowed in practice and pro-ams in the US because a sponsor said they would like to see it. Perhaps there is hope.


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#10 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:00 PM

I've always likened it to a stage play.  The players don't begin their pre-shot routine until the curtain goes up for their act.

 

Do pace of play penalties apply in the tournaments you officiate at? Do you have an explanation for the apparent inconsistent enforcement by PGA tour rules officials of the PGA pace of play rules?


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#11 rogolf

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:00 PM

Does anyone actually knows what Pace of Play Policy is for the PGA Tour?

Google is your friend,

https://twitter.com/...8827392/photo/1


Edited by rogolf, 21 February 2019 - 01:01 PM.


#12 Monty85

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:28 PM

Yep. Being ready to play is the key.

 

I wonder whether players realise just how long they are taking when it is their turn. It's not pro golf I know but I've watched club players take minutes having a chat before even turning their attention to playing their shot.

 

So true. It's all the little things that just add up. You don't really need to make much an effort to be a quick player, it's all the stuff in between.

 

Put your club back in your bag while others are teeing off for example. Then once the final person hits, start walking then, not after the ball comes to rest.

 

Just little things like that all add up. Walking ahead and preparing for your shot is the biggest one which so many don't do.....

 

....but baby steps.


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#13 rogolf

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:27 PM

So true. It's all the little things that just add up. You don't really need to make much an effort to be a quick player, it's all the stuff in between.

 

Put your club back in your bag while others are teeing off for example. Then once the final person hits, start walking then, not after the ball comes to rest.

 

Just little things like that all add up. Walking ahead and preparing for your shot is the biggest one which so many don't do.....

 

....but baby steps.

I hate teeing off last in the groups that I play with - it means I'm about 25 yards behind them leaving the tee - and not much conversation!



#14 Monty85

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:33 PM

I hate teeing off last in the groups that I play with - it means I'm about 25 yards behind them leaving the tee - and not much conversation!

 

That can happen. If everyone is on top of being proactive about things though there's no reason you can't all walk together and go your separate ways once you approach the ball/s.

 

That being said - rounds can go from anywhere from 3 to 5 hours. Plenty of time for conversation in that amount of time.


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#15 rogolf

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Posted 21 February 2019 - 03:50 PM

That can happen. If everyone is on top of being proactive about things though there's no reason you can't all walk together and go your separate ways once you approach the ball/s.

 

That being said - rounds can go from anywhere from 3 to 5 hours. Plenty of time for conversation in that amount of time.

We're not there for the conversation - we're there to play golf.  Conversation can be had in the bar!






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