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How To Square Up Clubface?


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#1 333pg333

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:49 PM

Just had a couple of lessons lately and working on some old chestnuts as to be expected. I used to draw the ball mostly however that was through hands and an inside path. Over the years probably got a little less flexible or something else changed. So now I have a very slight out to in path on more of my swings which has sometimes promoted a fade. Other times a pull/hook depending on hands. Noticed in one of the drills that the coach filmed that the clubface is quite open. Interestingly I go back with it shut but I seem to have a bit of a hold off release in this drill. I really like some of the positions (not that position golf is wise) I'm getting into in the drill though. So I'm wondering do I literally just think about a bit more bowed left wrist rotation / bent right wrist through impact? When I think of that feeling, I can get it going really well, but sometimes it just over does it and that's the left going lefter result. Thoughts? 

 

Oh, yes, I'm aware of bent left arm in backswing and I do stand up a little through that area too. Trying to work on rotating down into the right leg rather than standing up. Not quite sure why I do this and if it's the chicken or egg. Also my really bad trait that pi$$es me off deluxe is the right leg pushing up and out and the body sliding laterally way too much starting pretty much at beginning or even before the downswing. Really need to figure out a way of killing that off as it is sending me around the freaking bend!! In the pics here this is a good swing as such for me. 

 

Excuse the clumsy method of uploading images. Took pics of frames from a video. Would be thrilled to bits with the last pic showing bottom of arc if only the clubface was a little squarer. Grip is pretty strong too. So it's as if I'm really holding off release. Interestingly we noticed that DJ is really doing this now. Err....in no way am I drawing a connection to him for the record. ;-)

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Edited by 333pg333, 11 February 2019 - 05:53 PM.


#2 333pg333

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 06:30 PM

How ironic. 2 mins after making thread I clicked on this. 


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#3 madness

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:06 PM

Just had a couple of lessons lately and working on some old chestnuts as to be expected. I used to draw the ball mostly however that was through hands and an inside path. Over the years probably got a little less flexible or something else changed. So now I have a very slight out to in path on more of my swings which has sometimes promoted a fade. Other times a pull/hook depending on hands. Noticed in one of the drills that the coach filmed that the clubface is quite open. Interestingly I go back with it shut but I seem to have a bit of a hold off release in this drill. I really like some of the positions (not that position golf is wise) I'm getting into in the drill though. So I'm wondering do I literally just think about a bit more bowed left wrist rotation / bent right wrist through impact? When I think of that feeling, I can get it going really well, but sometimes it just over does it and that's the left going lefter result. Thoughts? 

 

Oh, yes, I'm aware of bent left arm in backswing and I do stand up a little through that area too. Trying to work on rotating down into the right leg rather than standing up. Not quite sure why I do this and if it's the chicken or egg. Also my really bad trait that pi$$es me off deluxe is the right leg pushing up and out and the body sliding laterally way too much starting pretty much at beginning or even before the downswing. Really need to figure out a way of killing that off as it is sending me around the freaking bend!! In the pics here this is a good swing as such for me. 

 

Excuse the clumsy method of uploading images. Took pics of frames from a video. Would be thrilled to bits with the last pic showing bottom of arc if only the clubface was a little squarer. Grip is pretty strong too. So it's as if I'm really holding off release. Interestingly we noticed that DJ is really doing this now. Err....in no way am I drawing a connection to him for the record. ;-)

Hitting an actual ball will make it look quite different. Always more adrenaline when we see the ball. On the topic of trying to control the face. If you are set up appropriately to match your movement then you don't have to control the clubface. 



#4 333pg333

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:58 PM

Yes without doubt. We have all uttered the sentence "Why can't I hit it with my practice swing??" Let the ball get in the way type thing. 

I'd not heard that theory that Mike Malaska proposed in the video linked above. But it rang true looking at my impact position as aptly demonstrated by him with a club circa 'Land of the Giants'. 


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#5 Zenstb

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:16 PM

Check out your right elbow at P5,narrow and steep, you are getting stuck and pivot has stalled.
Mike's drill would work well, get wide at start of the downswing and start to close the face from the top and then add some pivot.

Edited by Zenstb, 11 February 2019 - 08:17 PM.

Coordination is the key to movement

#6 333pg333

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:47 PM

Is P5 when the club is perpendicular to the ground, arms parallel? 



#7 Old Poppy

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:14 PM

Mate, the only way I can see you squaring the clubface with that swing is to work at scissoring your forearms in the follow through - left palm up, right palm down and clubface down. Imo your present body rotation doesn't match a hold off release.
The thought process is to focus on maintaining a centred swing hub and to focus on the forward swing, especially the follow through. Make sure he club head chases after the ball.
Good luck.

Edited by Old Poppy, 11 February 2019 - 10:16 PM.

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#8 golfguy33

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:39 PM

I would suggest your practise swing is anything but closed throughout the back half.

And totally agree that it will be different with a ball in the way.

Jon...


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#9 Zenstb

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:16 AM

Is P5 when the club is perpendicular to the ground, arms parallel?


Photo 12 ,
If your doing this in your practice swing as you are rehearsing what you want to execute on your real swing. This raise concerns.
This biggest mistake it trying to pull out right arm down in towards the right hip. For the reasons I mentioned above in an earlier post.
Coordination is the key to movement

#10 333pg333

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 11:26 AM

Photo 12 ,
If your doing this in your practice swing as you are rehearsing what you want to execute on your real swing. This raise concerns.
This biggest mistake it trying to pull out right arm down in towards the right hip. For the reasons I mentioned above in an earlier post.

To preface this, I suspect that some of you are right in saying it's unlikely that this practice swing drill represents the actual swing. I've got footage of that swing in Trackman and will try and get some stills just to confirm. 
 

But to your point. This doesn't quite make sense to me. If we try to drop the hands straight down from the top of the backswing as to mimic some of the best ballstrikers then by virtue of this movement isn't the right elbow going to work down close towards the right hip? Conversely if we visualise the Malaska drill where he suggests a feeling of the club coming outside the plane line (even though he doesn't do this in his demo swing) the right elbow still comes closer to the right hip rather than the whole arm coming out and around. Perhaps due to being at work and a bit rushed, I'm not thinking about this clearly however I've always assumed that position to be similar to some of the guys that really hold lag for a longer time. Therefore as a bit of a caster, I thought I'd found something positive in that position. Appears that I'm wrong. Dratz! 



#11 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:32 PM

 

...

 

But to your point. This doesn't quite make sense to me. If we try to drop the hands straight down from the top of the backswing as to mimic some of the best ballstrikers then by virtue of this movement isn't the right elbow going to work down close towards the right hip? Conversely if we visualise the Malaska drill where he suggests a feeling of the club coming outside the plane line (even though he doesn't do this in his demo swing) the right elbow still comes closer to the right hip rather than the whole arm coming out and around. Perhaps due to being at work and a bit rushed, I'm not thinking about this clearly however I've always assumed that position to be similar to some of the guys that really hold lag for a longer time. Therefore as a bit of a caster, I thought I'd found something positive in that position. Appears that I'm wrong. Dratz! 

 

 

Your analysis is pretty good and with your right elbow in front of your body as it is by most definitions you are not "stuck".


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#12 333pg333

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:11 PM

I'll certainly agree that my tendency is for the hips to stall and the arms to catch up in general.

 

Here's a few screen grabs from behind and hitting a ball. 

This was done before that sequence above. But same problems exist. Not enough hip rotation on downswing. Too much lateral shift. Impacting on lag and clubface orientation. Having to save with hands. I think average distance with 7 iron is around 160mtrs which I'll take. Not a young fella anymore. 

Need to figure out a thought / feeling to get the hips working better. 

 

 

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#13 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:41 PM

I'll certainly agree that my tendency is for the hips to stall and the arms to catch up in general.

 

Here's a few screen grabs from behind and hitting a ball. 

This was done before that sequence above. But same problems exist. Not enough hip rotation on downswing. Too much lateral shift. Impacting on lag and clubface orientation. Having to save with hands. I think average distance with 7 iron is around 160mtrs which I'll take. Not a young fella anymore. 

Need to figure out a thought / feeling to get the hips working better. 

 

First of all you've got some good stuff happening. I disagree that the same problems exist in the DTL and your earlier FO images. In particular I like the elbow position at mid downswing better in the FO images if the difference is not due to camera angles.

 

My guess is that part of your problem is that in the DTL view your right arm straightens a little early. I'd prefer to see the elbow further toward impact before straightening. Sort of like the underarm motion skipping stones on water with the elbow a little closer to the body. That will make it easier to rotate your body through the ball like the ice skater keeping their arms closer when they want to spin faster.

 

At the same time as changing your right elbow action a little, one thing I've tried with some success is simply moving the left leg away from the target line at the start of the downswing (even the left knee for starters). In my case I thought I was doing everything I could to rotate my hips open but it turned out that I hadn't tried the obvious step of simply moving the knee and the left hip where I wanted them.

 

With so much good stuff happening in your swing though I'd try the elbow action first to see whether your natural athletic ability kicks in to move your hips.

 

As a side note Malaska advises that his move does not involve uncocking the wrists (no ulnar deviation in techo terms) until the club is stood up.


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#14 Old Poppy

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:42 PM

Have a read of Kelvin's article on Micro Moves of the Correct Backswing. I can't copy it on the rubbish tablet I'm using. From what I see all your issues originate in the backswing and maybe a weak left hand grip.

Edited by Old Poppy, 12 February 2019 - 01:51 PM.


#15 333pg333

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:22 PM

First of all you've got some good stuff happening. I disagree that the same problems exist in the DTL and your earlier FO images. In particular I like the elbow position at mid downswing better in the FO images if the difference is not due to camera angles.

 

My guess is that part of your problem is that in the DTL view your right arm straightens a little early. I'd prefer to see the elbow further toward impact before straightening. Sort of like the underarm motion skipping stones on water with the elbow a little closer to the body. That will make it easier to rotate your body through the ball like the ice skater keeping their arms closer when they want to spin faster.

 

At the same time as changing your right elbow action a little, one thing I've tried with some success is simply moving the left leg away from the target line at the start of the downswing (even the left knee for starters). In my case I thought I was doing everything I could to rotate my hips open but it turned out that I hadn't tried the obvious step of simply moving the knee and the left hip where I wanted them.

 

With so much good stuff happening in your swing though I'd try the elbow action first to see whether your natural athletic ability kicks in to move your hips.

 

As a side note Malaska advises that his move does not involve uncocking the wrists (no ulnar deviation in techo terms) until the club is stood up.

 

Thanks for the mental punch in the arm for confidence. To be honest, in the last 2 weeks with 2 lessons I've been getting worse and worse. Not altogether surprising. But to make changes sometimes we have to suffer. Having said that, it was really windy in Sydney this arvo and there's nothing like a wind to bring out faults. The biggest problem I have is starting the backswing by a pushing of the right leg laterally. I can often even feel myself sliding laterally before completing the backswing. I think that's a little bit of tension in the brain that does that. One of the reasons why I don't drink coffee (which I really enjoy) before a round of golf. 

 

So my current project from the lesson is to get back and down a little in posture to counteract the standing up part of my natural backswing. That's the first part. He then had me try and produce the 'swoosh' at the bottom of the arc to put it simply. This was the practice swing at the top of this thread. The 1st lesson he was trying to get me to think of dropping my left knee down, out, up and around kinda-sorta. Which is more or less what you're saying. The thing is that this right leg is so dominant that while I'm thinking of turning back and 'screwing down' with right leg, trying to keep arms closer to my body as I tended to have too much separation, tinker between going back bowed or cupped, drop the arms down at beginning of swing, keep the right elbow, wrist bent and try to push down/out with a bowed left wrist...all while trying to keep head back while almost viciously rotating hips and staying in shape like Tommy Fleetwood from behind. Not a lot to ask....So clearly I'm a mess and think I probably need to take a break from the game for a few weeks. I pretty much feel like I can't even hit the ball at the moment. It's a headfcuk! 

Have a read of Kelvin's article on Micro Moves of the Correct Backswing. I can't copy it on the rubbish tablet I'm using. From what I see all your issues originate in the backswing and maybe a weak left hand grip.

Didn't think my grip was weak. If anything it sometimes can get a bit strong. Although as you say the left is more weak than the right. I'd say on average the left thumb is at 1 o'clock. Right hand is stronger. I can go stronger with left. Actually tried that a little today. Felt like DJ. Went back with what felt like super shut clubface. Too hard to tell by then though as my brain was fried between 35kmh winds and growing inward confidence spiral. 






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