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Sieckmann Short Game


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#16 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 12:34 AM

Maintaining lag pressure thru impact helps to maintain control of the club. The loss of lag pressure prior to impact results in a loss of control of the club. If you are trying to finesse the club, you would think that you would need to have total control of the club for such a delicate shot?

 

Terminology is a problem here. If I understand you correctly your idea of control is tied in with the idea of the hands leading the club. If overdone that makes it impossible to play a model Sieckmann style finesse shot. One way to put it is that where a little lag pressure at impact might be a good thing on these shots more lag pressure does not necessarily make for more control.

 

In my mind Sieckmann advocates mechanics something like the impact you would want if you swung a putter back and through to waste height neither wanting a downward strike nor an upward strike. The shaft lean is almost zero at impact, goes to zero an inch or so after impact and then goes negative after that (of course that changes if you want to hit down on the ball as you may well do).

 

The power sequence is thus reversed with maximum lag pressure at the start of the down stroke to ensure that the club catches up with the hands (although Sieckmann talks about the club falling due to gravity which I think is wrong). The lag pressure decreases to zero or close to zero at impact. The key control technique is to keep the club, hands, arms and shoulders and even hips moving together through impact but with no acceleration at impact. To switch analogies it is a bit like playing a shot with a shaft that turns to rope about a foot before impact.

 

This reversal has been demonstrated by testing of players by TPI. After "discovering" the kinetic sequence they couldn't understand what they were seeing on finesse shots. It was Sieckmann's ideas which enabled them to understand.

 

FWIW I don't subscribe to all of Sieckmann's ideas. I think the pure finesse shot he describes is as much a fiction as a pure pendulum putting stroke. But I do find it helpful to get rid of lag well before impact. The opposite of downcock is a good thing on these shots.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 17 October 2018 - 12:38 AM.


#17 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 09:19 AM

Terminology is a problem here. If I understand you correctly your idea of control is tied in with the idea of the hands leading the club. If overdone that makes it impossible to play a model Sieckmann style finesse shot. One way to put it is that where a little lag pressure at impact might be a good thing on these shots more lag pressure does not necessarily make for more control.
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Lag pressure is not the same as club head lag. It is the pressure on the hands due to the act of accelerating the club. It is best felt with the right index finger when it is held against the aft side of the shaft. The amount of lag pressure is not important, any lag pressure is better than none. Lag pressure helps to maintain the line of compression of the club, thru impact.

If lag pressure is removed, the club will decelerate. I would think that would be problematic when trying to finesse a shot.

#18 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 10:12 AM

...

 

Lag pressure helps to maintain the line of compression of the club, thru impact. If lag pressure is removed, the club will decelerate.

 

...

 

I did say that terminology is a problem here. There are lots of mental imagery which can be used to assist understanding of Sieckmann's finesse method. I mentioned two above. He uses lots more.

 

For example he likens the motion to swinging with only the right hand on the club. He also uses the idea of almost neutral shaft lean at impact. He talks far more about swing planes and alignments than he does about the forces which might be used to achieve those swing planes and alignments. He talks about rhythm and tempo rather than the forces which might be used to control tempo. He talks about achieving quality of contact rather than the forces which might be used to improve quality of contact.

 

I'll have one more go to get the paradigm across. When I practice short game shots my wife often takes my putter in one hand and knocks the balls back to me from up to 20m and even further. She almost always does it without even touching the green surface and most certainly does it without conscious thought. She achieves an amazingly consistent strike. She only uses enough lag to get the putter head moving and releases that lag way before impact.

 

Control the motion with lag pressure? Maybe in your terminology she does but the concept is not one she even knows. Maintain the compression line? She definitely does. She just knocks the balls back one handed and has learned not to take divots out of the greens. And whatever you do, do not take her on for money on the greens.

 

My wife has learned Sieckmann's methods without ever knowing it. There's a whole lot of physics going on of which she is blissfully unaware. In my view Sieckmann's main contribution might be this paradigm shift.



#19 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 10:32 AM

I did say that terminology is a problem here. There are lots of mental imagery which can be used to assist understanding of Sieckmann's finesse method. I mentioned two above. He uses lots more.

For example he likens the motion to swinging with only the right hand on the club. He also uses the idea of almost neutral shaft lean at impact. He talks far more about swing planes and alignments than he does about the forces which might be used to achieve those swing planes and alignments. He talks about rhythm and tempo rather than the forces which might be used to control tempo. He talks about achieving quality of contact rather than the forces which might be used to improve quality of contact.

I'll have one more go to get the paradigm across. When I practice short game shots my wife often takes my putter in one hand and knocks the balls back to me from up to 20m and even further. She almost always does it without even touching the green surface and most certainly does it without conscious thought. She achieves an amazingly consistent strike. She only uses enough lag to get the putter head moving and releases that lag way before impact.

Control the motion with lag pressure? Maybe in your terminology she does but the concept is not one she even knows. Maintain the compression line? She definitely does. She just knocks the balls back one handed and has learned not to take divots out of the greens. And whatever you do, do not take her on for money on the greens.

My wife has learned Sieckmann's methods without ever knowing it. There's a whole lot of physics going on of which she is blissfully unaware. In my view Sieckmann's main contribution might be this paradigm shift.


LOL! I can’t believe you have a wife that does that for you. What did you have to do to get her to be your ball girl? I know what my wife would say!

I get the picture of what the action is. Even when you wife swings the putter with one hand, I think you will find that she is still maintaining the lag thru impact, even if it is at a very low pressure level.

Edited by Jack_Golfer, 17 October 2018 - 10:34 AM.


#20 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 12:58 PM

LOL! I can’t believe you have a wife that does that for you. What did you have to do to get her to be your ball girl? I know what my wife would say!

I get the picture of what the action is. Even when you wife swings the putter with one hand, I think you will find that she is still maintaining the lag thru impact, even if it is at a very low pressure level.

 

She's also my swing video operator. I gave up trying to figure it out years ago but there is one basic principle: Happy wife, happy life!



#21 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 08:58 PM

She's also my swing video operator. I gave up trying to figure it out years ago but there is one basic principle: Happy wife, happy life!

Wise words but I’m afraid that I would have to give up golf to make my wife happy🙁
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