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#1 Can Break 80

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 08:27 AM

Interesting situation on saturday in our 4.

 

Player A hits ball onto a par 3. goes up and marks his ball and picks up to clean ball.

 

The ball must have fallen from his pocket onto the front edge of the green further from the hole.

 

when it was player A turn to putt he putted the ball from where it was on front edge up towards the hole, as he walked up he passed his marker and realised he had played from the wrong position.

 

He picked up his ball and placed behind marker.

and proceeded to putt out from there, He had 3 putts, and so wrote down a 4

 

His marker called it as picking up a ball in play (it was a stroke round and hence wrote dnf on hole..

 

Player A said that his ball wasn't in play because he had marked it.

 

I along with the other member  in the group felt it should have been 1 shot penalty for either testing green or playing from wrong position.

 

ruling please.....


Edited by Can Break 80, 05 August 2018 - 08:29 AM.

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#2 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 08:43 AM

I'll go for 20-7( c )

If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).

 

Your player A has played from the wrong place twice. First by not replacing it where it was marked. Second by correcting his error.

 

Four strokes penalty.


Edited by Forrest Gardener, 05 August 2018 - 08:44 AM.


#3 ColinCL

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 09:08 AM

Good try, but he actually played a wrong ball. [Rule 15-3]

 

See Decision 15/4 

http://www.usga.org/...cision-15,d15-4

 

He then did the right thing by playing from the right place.  He incurred a 2 stroke penalty for the wrong ball and scored 6.

 

tee shot =1 

3 putts = 4

2 penalty strokes = 6

Stroke made at a wrong ball do not count.


Edited by ColinCL, 05 August 2018 - 09:11 AM.


#4 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 09:26 AM

Good try, but he actually played a wrong ball. [Rule 15-3] See Decision 15/4 ...

 

Nice catch Colin.

 

Just to summarise, the player in question used the same ball throughout, plays from the wrong place and the correct ruling is that he ... wait for it ... wait for it ... played the wrong ball.

 

My follow up question is how a player who did not know about the decision could, with rule book in hand, have ever figured THAT out.



#5 golfguy33

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 12:01 PM

He played " his ball " from the wrong place and it becomes a wrong ball ( not the original ball in play ? )

 

Rule 20-7c seems to cover the breach and then add in the problem of picking up the ball once he had played it from the wrong place.

 

Can't wait for the CL explanation as to how the original ball has changed into another ball other than the ball in play, that was simply played from the wrong place, this should be good and I can't wait to be corrected :)

Jon... 



#6 languid

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 12:02 PM

Forrest,

 

It isn't easy, it is very difficult. The Definitions have relevance. Go to Wrong Ball. There it tells you that a ball which is not in play is a Wrong Ball. 

Then there is a lot to digest on Ball in Play in Definitions.

However you have to suspect the possibility possible relevance of Wrong Ball to the situation.

I would not expect anybody who is not really well acquainted with The Rules to work this out. Even then plenty of people who are pretty good with the Rules will not get it and go to the Wrong Place which it seems to be.

 

I have a clue which might be useful for the future.

 

If you consider Playing from Wrong Place..it is Rule 20-7 Which is part of the Rule 20 - Lifting, Dropping and Placing; Playing from Wrong Place.

 

Wrong Place is always (?, I think) connected with dropping, placing or replacing. 

Although the ball was lifted in this case it was not dropped or placed or replaced. 

This concept has helped me avoid the confusion of Wrong Place and Wrong Ball.

Here is a common  Rules Quiz question that traps many doing a Club Level Rules exam.

 Q. A Player plays his ball which he does not realise is lying Out Of Bounds. He has played from a Wrong Place. True or False

 

A. False, he has played a Wrong Ball as the ball was Not in Play.

 

Will someone check my (? I think) proposition please?



#7 golfguy33

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 01:13 PM

Forrest,

 

It isn't easy, it is very difficult. The Definitions have relevance. Go to Wrong Ball. There it tells you that a ball which is not in play is a Wrong Ball. 

Then there is a lot to digest on Ball in Play in Definitions.

However you have to suspect the possibility possible relevance of Wrong Ball to the situation.

I would not expect anybody who is not really well acquainted with The Rules to work this out. Even then plenty of people who are pretty good with the Rules will not get it and go to the Wrong Place which it seems to be.

 

I have a clue which might be useful for the future.

 

If you consider Playing from Wrong Place..it is Rule 20-7 Which is part of the Rule 20 - Lifting, Dropping and Placing; Playing from Wrong Place.

 

Wrong Place is always (?, I think) connected with dropping, placing or replacing. 

Although the ball was lifted in this case it was not dropped or placed or replaced. 

This concept has helped me avoid the confusion of Wrong Place and Wrong Ball.

Here is a common  Rules Quiz question that traps many doing a Club Level Rules exam.

 Q. A Player plays his ball which he does not realise is lying Out Of Bounds. He has played from a Wrong Place. True or False

 

A. False, he has played a Wrong Ball as the ball was Not in Play.

 

Will someone check my (? I think) proposition please?

OOB is a different scenario.

Rule 20-7 deals with playing from a wrong place, 20-6 is concerned with dropping and re-dropping.

Jon... 



#8 golfguy33

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 01:16 PM

Thanks for the ruling,

what if player A had finished putting out with the wrong ball and then picked up his marker.

would this change the ruling.

If player A had taken advantage of playing from a wrong place then it would be a case for DQ. If he had not done it on purpose and it was an accident then rule 20-7 seems to cover the breach.

Jon... 



#9 Can Break 80

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:21 PM

  

Player A's marker argued that rule 20.4 applied as the dropped ball on the green was now the ball in play, 

 

20-4. When Ball Dropped, Placed or Replaced is in Play

If the player's ball in play has been lifted, dropped it is again in play when dropped or placed.

 

A ball that has been replaced or dropped is in play whether or not the ball-marker has been removed.

substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed.(Ball incorrectly substituted - see Rule 15-2).

 

So under rule 15.2 even though its a wrong ball player A was still required to play the hole out with the wrong ball and then add the penalty.,

But by picking up the wrong ball (now the ball in play) player A has disqualified himself (yes it was a stroke round not a stableford round)


Edited by Can Break 80, 05 August 2018 - 03:28 PM.

2017 OOM winner at Growling Frog.

2016 A grade winner Moonah legends OOM4.

2015 member of team Vision winners of SGC pennant.

2014 National ISG champion

2014 winner Kooindah waters

2014 winner Magenta shores


2014 first ever hole in 1 in an ISG event, 4th Hole Kooindah waters 19th October

2012 winner of BHIC and gaining a 5 year exemption


#10 languid

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:35 PM

I don’t understand why there is not acceptance of Colin CL’s correct post. When the player played his ball which was no longer in play, he played a Wrong Ball.
The fact it was the his Ball, his original Ball which he marked is irrelevant. It could have been another players ball or any other ball.
The Ball WAS NOT IN PLAY.
The secenario guessed the ball dropped out of his pocket. I will buy that. It doesn’t matter how it got to be there. He might have done something common like marking his Ball then setting it aside. Same deal the Ball is no longer in play until he replaces it.
Now let’s take a variation. The player instead of just putting it where he “accidentally” dropped it” decides he wants to mark it and line up the line on the ball for his putt.
Now he is putting a ball in play, but at a Wrong Place.
Now he putts from a Wrong Place. That is 2 strokes penalty. He should then play out the hole with that ball. But there is no additional Penalty.
Because he putted further from the hole than where he originally marked his Ball he gained no advantage and there is NO SERIOUS BREACH to be corrected.

Already it is getting hard to follow,eh?

Let’s suppose instead of playing the ball out he finds his original marker and picks his Ball up and plays from there.
He is in more trouble. Although he putted from a Wrong Place his ball was in play, maybe close to the hole.
Read Decision 20-7c/2. He incurred the general penalty ot 2 strokes...
Total penalty 4 strokes.

But in the original scenario he never played from a Wrong Place. He played a Wrong Ball.

Anybody who gets on top of this complicated section of Rules is potentially a State Level Official or already is.
.

#11 languid

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:39 PM

  
Player A's marker argued that rule 20.4 applied as the dropped ball on the green was now the ball in play, 
 
20-4. When Ball Dropped, Placed or Replaced is in Play

If the player's ball in play has been lifted, dropped it is again in play when dropped or placed.
 
A ball that has been replaced or dropped is in play whether or not the ball-marker has been removed.
substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed.(Ball incorrectly substituted - see Rule 15-2).
 
So under rule 15.2 even though its a wrong ball player A was still required to play the hole out with the wrong ball and then add the penalty.,
But by picking up the wrong ball (now the ball in play) player A has disqualified himself (yes it was a stroke round not a stableford round)


20-4 does not apply because he did not Drop The Ball in Rules terms. The Ball dropped out of his pocket but he did not DROP the ball.

#12 ColinCL

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 03:50 PM

Hang on guys.  The situation described by the OP is exactly what is covered by Decision 15/4 - which also gives the reason why the ball played was  a wrong ball.

http://www.usga.org/...cision-15,d15-4

 

When you lift your ball, it is out of play. It is only put back into play when you replace, place or drop it.  The OP's ball was out of play and had the same status as any stray ball lying around on the course.   If you make a stroke at any ball other than your ball in play or your ball provisionally in play, it is a wrong ball.  If you play a wrong ball you must correct the error by playing the correct one.   Once you know the ball you played is a wrong one you do not hole out but if you have holed out you have until a ball is put into play from the next tee to go back and correct the mistake.

 

The rules which apply are the Definition of a wrong ball and 15-3.

 

In match play, as is usual, it is much simpler.  Play a wrong ball and you lose the hole.

 

To answer the question as to what happens if the player lifts his marker, he would replace his ball and play from there in order to correct the wrong ball error but would incur a one stroke penalty for removing the marker in addition to the 2 stroke penalty for the wrong ball.

 

Edit:  Thanks to Languid for helping to explain but I'm not sure why either of us is having to do so!  Decision 15/4 says it all.  But, to be fair, it is not a situation I would expect many players to be able to rule  on the course.  


Edited by ColinCL, 05 August 2018 - 03:57 PM.


#13 Can Break 80

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 04:14 PM

Thank you Colin and Languid for clarifying this, and one of the reasons I posted was to get the correct ruling.

 

Player A's marker, and indeed others in club house after were confused because Player A  picked up the ball in a stroke round.

 

If it had been a stableford comp then player A said he would have just wiped the hole with out concern for proper ruling.

 

This is a good example of what happens when we play so much stableford comps that club players don't always know the rules or even bother to apply correct rulings of one or two strokes to score because  penalty strokes dont seem to mean as much because they just take pick up and take a wipe on the hole.

 

perhaps rules need to be more simplified such as standard penalty of 2 strokes for any breach of rule then it wouldn't matter which rule was broken the penalty would apply.


Edited by Can Break 80, 05 August 2018 - 04:35 PM.

2017 OOM winner at Growling Frog.

2016 A grade winner Moonah legends OOM4.

2015 member of team Vision winners of SGC pennant.

2014 National ISG champion

2014 winner Kooindah waters

2014 winner Magenta shores


2014 first ever hole in 1 in an ISG event, 4th Hole Kooindah waters 19th October

2012 winner of BHIC and gaining a 5 year exemption


#14 languid

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 04:33 PM

Stroke rounds and dramas and penalties cause so much trouble at Club level, particularly.

I look forward to our Club adopting the Maximum Score Net Double Bogey variation next year. I think that will help players and frazzled Committees trying to unravel many situations where it gets complicated just trying to reconstruct what actually happened on the course.

#15 AAA

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 04:47 PM

Edit:  Thanks to Languid for helping to explain but I'm not sure why either of us is having to do so!  Decision 15/4 says it all.  But, to be fair, it is not a situation I would expect many players to be able to rule  on the course.  

It may be because the decision refers to a ball that has been 'set aside'. A deliberate action. The accidental dropping of the ball may possibly not be thought of in the same light.

 

I must admit the concept of your own original ball being a wrong ball and playing it from where you shouldn't not being a wrong place seems odd to say the least. But that what the rules say.






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