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Swing Mechanics Without Athletic Ability


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#121 Zenstb

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Posted 29 August 2018 - 09:06 PM

Jack, Zen,

not to disagree, but I think you are both discounting the game changing possibility of golf instruction that actually worked.

Everything you said is true, but also true is the fact that nearly everyone I know, and I include myself in this, currently gets worse when they start working on swing mechanics. From Nick Faldo's 3 years uncompetitive while he worked with Leadbetter, to Luke Donald losing his #1 ranking when he tried to add distance, to Martin Kaymer stuffing up his game when he tried to shift from a fade to a draw, to every hacker I have ever met who had lessons.

Zen's technology is amazing, but it is not the final deal quite yet, imo. Zen still seems to be in learning mode, which is actually fantastic imo. But, as I said earlier, where might he be in say 5 years?

Imagine. You pay, what, £200 for a 2 hour session with Zen, and get the advice: forget 4 barrel swings, forget LOP, forget RIT, for you the best is a hold off action Trevino style. The report goes back to the club pro, the club pro coaches the hacker towards a Trevino action getting paid for those lessons, the hacker drops four shots off their handicap. If they then stick with that pattern and put some effort into short game and course management, they will drop another 4 shots.

At the moment, club pros don't have good diagnostic information, they just take educated guesses, try X, try Y, try Z. Oh, that seems better, stick with Z. A couple of rounds later, Z does not seem to work any more, so the pupil concludes that lessons don't work.

Just sayin'.

 

100% agree technology is advancing and we are getting close. At this years PGA show the system I have will be a 1 built in system where you measure the Ground reaction forces, a ball flight monitor showing the ball flight on a projector screen. We already measure the body movement,the hands and the club data and shaft data.

Although I already did research using force plate, EMG (measures the muscle activity) and 3D. We build training programs to train the coordination patterns to swing the club. 

What I do is people come to me we find out their blue print to swing a club then we measure drills and exercises to ensure the training program works.

Myself I've gone that one step further and measure the gym training programs too. Where I measure the squat patterns, vertical leap patterns. Kettle bell swings that training explosive patterns and replicate a kinetic link pattern. With squats also how to apply force through the ground like we do in golf etc.

 

I'm basically at the point I can give an MRI tell you what type of swing works for your body type. As example I measure the length of the shoulder joint to the elbow. Hand to Elbow. This dictates the downswing plane. This determines Elbow plane. Say you have short shoulder to elbow and Elbow to hand is longer. Your would have a high torso plane hand plane. You try to get your hand plane down onto hip plane you will go into  early right lateral bending to get your hands to hip plane. This causes upper body stalling. For this person their physiology they need to have a higher hand plane. Just say You have short forearms and longer Shoulder to Elbow. You would be a hip plane hand path. These are the guys who get stuck, because they are working the hands to high into impact. Depending on the lengths of each segment. People's hand plane can be mid torso, mid hip, low hip, high shoulder, low shoulder, high torso . I found this a massive help for people to work on the right hand plane that works with their anatomy setup.  I've got amazing results giving them a blueprint what their hand path should be from measurements. 

Was stumble of discovery when I starting asking why the hell does people early right lateral bend occur or people get stuck.

 

 I thought I made a great discovery although there is a guy called Mike Adams and does bioswing dynamics certifications for instructors. They measure the same thing. Wing spand and height. Wing span in his system is for backswing height although. I was reserved with this concept as an example if  the wing spand higher than height , you have a high backswing. I agree if you have good physiology,  although people older and physical limitations or shoulder issues doesn't seem to match. 

There is cool stuff on grip types I like that he has,that matches people physical limitations and helps their hand plane an release. Worth a look at.  

It was good though to find there was someone who already made the discovery and help understand what I was seeing on the 3D and was on the right page and does work.

 

 

The only failure or set back I have with what I do,  is the golfer not dedicating the time to train. We have programs for the ball striking component, also have similar models for putting, pitching, bunker play and wedge play. Then the mental training component.

Although in search for greatness or better golf is back to the golfer putting in the hours to improve. Golf what you put in,  is what you get out of it. Like I say to people these tour players want to be good after 20 plus years of training and practicing  for thousands of hours prior to being on tour. They started as kids and kept practicing.  

 

Devon the problem with swing mechanics is we are working on positions rather then working the dynamics of the club and body to produce the positions and why people don't get better.  


Edited by Zenstb, 29 August 2018 - 09:13 PM.

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#122 Devongolfer

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:25 PM

Knees and arms?

Still following this line of reasoning towards the simplest swing for a non athlete. Broadly speaking, pretty happy with my improved right arm action, Zach Johnson style pattern for everything except RIT for driver, letting the pivot follow the arms naturally etc etc

But every now and then, I am still hitting a shocker.

My interpretation of this is that every now and then I make a bad pivot. At the moment, I am trying to avoid swing thoughts related to the pivot altogether. Now I am wondering whether I do need a key, but what would work as the best and simplest pivot key?

I found a comment in Bob Toski's book, "How to feel a real golf swing". Paraphrasing, he says the knees control the hips and the arms control the shoulders. Further, he says the only thing he feels in the swing are his arms and knees.

You will see where I am going with this. Presently, I am trying to get away with just feeling my arms. Now I am wondering whether knees and arms are the minimum set of feels.

There is one more thing that intrigues me about this. When I set up, if I keep everything still, then do a left knee movement back, the club and hands move back. It is like a waggle, but using the knee. The thing that intrigues me is that this waggle move clearly shows a hands path and shaft plane. This seems like "the hands path and shaft plane the pivot will move the hands and club on".

From there, several more ideas occur. If that is the path the pivot wants to move the hands and shaft on, why not just extend that same path with the arms further in the backswing? Going further, why not on the downswing try to get back to that "knee waggle" position with hands and shaft before pivoting through impact?

In all of the hundreds of swing moves I have tried, I have never tried anything to do with knees.

I'll be trying this next week and will report back, but meanwhile, would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried something similar.

Edited by Devongolfer, 09 September 2018 - 04:35 PM.


#123 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 07:07 PM

Knees and arms?
Still following this line of reasoning towards the simplest swing for a non athlete. Broadly speaking, pretty happy with my improved right arm action, Zach Johnson style pattern for everything except RIT for driver, letting the pivot follow the arms naturally etc etc
But every now and then, I am still hitting a shocker.
My interpretation of this is that every now and then I make a bad pivot. At the moment, I am trying to avoid swing thoughts related to the pivot altogether. Now I am wondering whether I do need a key, but what would work as the best and simplest pivot key?
I found a comment in Bob Toski's book, "How to feel a real golf swing". Paraphrasing, he says the knees control the hips and the arms control the shoulders. Further, he says the only thing he feels in the swing are his arms and knees.
You will see where I am going with this. Presently, I am trying to get away with just feeling my arms. Now I am wondering whether knees and arms are the minimum set of feels.
There is one more thing that intrigues me about this. When I set up, if I keep everything still, then do a left knee movement back, the club and hands move back. It is like a waggle, but using the knee. The thing that intrigues me is that this waggle move clearly shows a hands path and shaft plane. This seems like "the hands path and shaft plane the pivot will move the hands and club on".
From there, several more ideas occur. If that is the path the pivot wants to move the hands and shaft on, why not just extend that same path with the arms further in the backswing? Going further, why not on the downswing try to get back to that "knee waggle" position with hands and shaft before pivoting through impact?
In all of the hundreds of swing moves I have tried, I have never tried anything to do with knees.
I'll be trying this next week and will report back, but meanwhile, would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried something similar.


Devon,
Most of the time, when I stuff up my shot, its usually due to an incorrect release sequence. That is, rather than a 4,1,2,3 release, I do a 1,4,2,3 or even worse, a 1,2,4,3. In these instances, you can often find that the lower body is playing catchup with the hands and arms and it usually ends badly.

The only way I have found to ensure I get the release sequence right is to feel the load on the last two fingers of the left hand (pressure point 3), as the lower body and shoulders start to rotate. Getting the knee action right is tricky and that is something I have been working on myself. I have trouble getting the legs to rotate the hips, while at the same time, keeping the hips stable, rather difficult, the result of years of using a very poor pivot action.

I am not sure of the exact swing pattern that you are using but if it is a RIT, without the right arm throw, then you will essentially be using a hitting pattern. ie the club isn’t moving around the body but in a path parallel to the body. Does that sound like what you are doing?

#124 golfguy33

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 09:36 PM

Devon, I find using the right knee a great way to promote rhythm and the best way to start my downswing. When I'm working on my timing it's the best way for me to get the correct sequence from the top and then be able to fire the club into the ball. I'm not 100% sure if it's also helping me to get the club to the top of my swing before firing the right knee at the ball, which helps me create lag too.

Jon...  



#125 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 09:37 PM

Back in the day, everyone used their knees, much more so than today.


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#126 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 02:06 AM

Thanks for the comments, Jack, gg, GPJ.

Skipped my game today to have a proper practice to try this knee idea.

Tried a couple of ways to feel knees, per Toski. One way that was a bit hit and miss was trying to sync up my arms with the right knee on the downswing, as Jon says. When it was good, I liked it. But I also got the knee going too soon at times, which led to a stuff up. This also violates a couple of principles I am working with which are

1: no transition thoughts of any kind
2: no downswing thoughts related to the pivot

The most promising thing I tried was the "left knee waggle". At address, move fhe left knee letting the whole body pivot, taking the arms and club back. I found that I naturally fell into a rhythm like a "pump and go", two left knee waggles, then off I go.

Several things about this.

First, it does not violate my two principles, a waggle is not a transition or a downswing key.

Second, it does give a nice visual of a hands path and club path, I really had a feel that the full backswing just continued on this same path / plane.

Third, it is not a power move, but it did seem to get my lower body moving nicely, I felt I pivoted nicely and finished nicely in balance.

Finally, as Jon also says, it seemed to promote rhythm.

I like it. It seems to be "zero cost" because the knee waggle is not a distracting thought during my actual swing, and it felt natural.

Jack, to your question. Yes, similar to hitting. The key is to get the arm not to rotate and roundhouse. If I want to "Zach" I keep the left arm on plane and then keep the right arm on plane to a high finish with no release. If I am driving, the left arm drops vertical and the right arm goes around flatter with a right wrist throw.

Thanks for the comments.
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#127 Weetbix

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 06:47 AM

What's behind the no transition or downswing thoughts principle?

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#128 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 07:16 AM

Hi, Weetbix,
this is just me, nothing scientific.

It all goes back a few months when we were debating transition moves like laying the club down. After a while of this, I realised that if you can do these moves naturally, great. But if I try to have a swing thought instead, there just is not enough time to think it then remember to hit the ball. I was mishitting nearly every other ball.

So, I decided to try limiting my backswing so I could do without transition thoughts, basically backswing, hit the ball. That worked much better for me. Hence "no transition thoughts"

Similarly, thoughts like starting with the left hip or similar pivot thoughts messed me up, leading me to adopt the idea that the pivot should just be natural, following the hands and arms ie "no downswing pivot thoughts" Also better for me.

All of this is following the line of thinking that the simpler the better, possibly due to a lack of athletic ability.

Anyway, that has been going great, but with the occasional shocker, which I think is due to the odd lousy pivot.

I don't want to go back to pivot thoughts, or transition thoughts, but am trying this knee thing to see if it gives me better pivot consistency without such thoughts.

Generally speaking, I am hitting the ball much better. My good ones are better and I hit many more good ones, but am still spoiling rounds with a few bad swings.

I hope that makes sense.

#129 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 10:37 AM

What's behind the no transition or downswing thoughts principle?


Hi Weeti,
Just wondering how you handle transition?

#130 Toph

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 06:52 PM

Jack I've been doing some research on Laying off Vs truly shallowing the club and sent a video today to Dr Sasho explaining the difference and to do some research on my findings. Within the golf biomecahnists and Golf coaches in the closed group they are talking about Shallowing. However their explanation is describing laying off and not enough on torquing the club so the club is truly shallowing. My understanding is they are describing Laying off and I feel this will do more harm than good.
Laying off is no torque or rotation applied from the hands from the top. True Shallowng is torque the hands first at top of backswing into transition.
When Sasho confirms my findings I will post the video as I want the PHd's on board so I don't get shot down in flames by the industry.

From personal experience of teaching laying the club off, I have had many failures because at impact golfers and even good golfers were Out to in at impact with an open face. Everything look great up until impact. It's like what the hell is going on. Why is this happening? Then there was other issues like early lateral bending, getting stuck etc. Then I had success with laying off with inside out paths and great results. Why?
After attending Sasho's seminar learning about the torque components the lights went on, the Torque of the hands applied to the club.
I began researching and found inside out guys and tour players torque the club first at the top, all of them did it. The Out of plane guys with outside in at impact didn't torque the club first. I got a bunch of golfers that became my guinea pigs. The outside in, I gave them torque at the top and started striping the ball and inside out path. The inside out guys I took away their torque and then had outside in path. Then other issues occurred early lateral bending, getting stuck, throwaway all the nightmares we don't want. Then I gave them torque back and started striping the ball again.

Anyway Jack my advice is try torquing the club, The torque idirects the forces of the club into the right positions. This won't effect your patterns if anything you will move better. I've found once people add torque they move better and can swing the club as fast as they like.

Had an interesting lesson this morning. My coach was stopping the last vestiges of OTT swing. His answer - swing more upright with maximal L wrist flexion early in the backswing to get the club shaft pointing inside of ball position, then torque with the L wrist going full ulnar deviation at the top (like reverse reving at motorbike- his words). Then downswing is just turning the body and using largely passive forces to impact.
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#131 Zenstb

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:08 PM

Had an interesting lesson this morning. My coach was stopping the last vestiges of OTT swing. His answer - swing more upright with maximal L wrist flexion early in the backswing to get the club shaft pointing inside of ball position, then torque with the L wrist going full ulnar deviation at the top (like reverse reving at motorbike- his words). Then downswing is just turning the body and using largely passive forces to impact.


Great to hear coaches are starting to applying the physics of the golf club.
I was criticised about it for a long time. Now there is more PHD's providing supporting evidence coaches are starting to embrace 3D research and apply it to the coaching.
To teach someone to coordinate the torque at the right time to get the best results you need to measure it with 3D.
Although just great to hear its been spoken about.
If you stick with it long enough you can learn the move and digg it out of the ground.
Ball goes left turn the body faster. Ball goes right torque the club earlier and faster. I like seeing people getting the ball to hook first then learn how fast to turn the body to hit a baby draw or fairly straight.
Coordination is the key to movement

#132 Zenstb

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:31 PM

Devon use your feet to move and rotate the hips. Can try a step drill to help train the feet . Get into setup find your ball position. Then bring your left foot back next to your right foot. Leave the hands at setup in address. As you begin to take the hands away to begin the back swing. Push off the back foot and step forward, push the left foot hard into the ground. Keep on turning. The hips in a kinetic link rotate before the hands reach parallel to the ground. The shoulders start rotating before the hands complete the backswing. The shoulder turn causes the arm transition.
Once you get the feeling of the feet pushing and pulling. Hit shots normally with the same feel.
To train this you need to do hundreds or reps and keep training this pattern frequently. I tell people never stop doing this exercise at least do 10 reps when grinding balls before around I recommend to them.
I know old school they use to say drive the knees. Truth is they used their feet.
I know old coaches who said they destroyed golfers, teaching them knee drive and even destroyed their own swing. When people drive their knees in 3D they get early right lateral bending, changes their spine tilt, which causes stalling of the upper body. Hand plane gets steep to far inside and behind your body. You get stuck.Then can have a two way miss. Either flip the hands and hold the face open. The other issue I see is it causes hip slide.The golfer gets in front. Similar issues happen.
The old guys that did leg drive all have back issues and had both hips replaced. Norman already has had to have his replaced due to his old leg drive days. Even though he changed to more rotational in late 80's early 90's the damage was already done.

Edited by Zenstb, 11 September 2018 - 09:40 PM.

Coordination is the key to movement

#133 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:58 PM

Zen,

as always, very much appreciate your inputs. Rest assured, I am not doing leg drive. I tried a few of those, as I mentioned, and it was clear right away how horribly wrong it could go.

All I want is a hands and arms swing with the pivot following naturally. This is working maybe 80% of the time. I am investigating the 20% and what to do about them.

Until I tried this knee thing, I have been thinking about either hip rotation or shoulder rotation on the backswing. I think I have a tendency to start too flat footed, and perhaps to shift my weight too much to my right leg, particularly if I am trying to hit hard.

It is very early days, I could very easily give up on the knee idea, but to the extent that it is working so far, I think it just loosens up my lower body in preparation to follow the arms once I make my actual swing.

But 100% agree, no leg drive.

#134 Weetbix

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 10:05 PM

Hi Weeti,
Just wondering how you handle transition?


Right now I just focus on getting back over my left foot, and I try to do it early - about when my arms are going past 9 o'clock on the backswing
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