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Swing Mechanics Without Athletic Ability


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#16 Zenstb

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:52 PM

Devon,
There is many ways to swing a club and different patterns too.
1 barrel swing wrist and club.
2 barel swing sequence, arm and club.
3 barel swing sequence, upperbody, arm and club.
4 barel swing sequence, hips, upperbody, arm and club.
3 barel swing is go enough to play off scratch or tour golf.
4 barel is Us tour golf only due to having to bomb the ball these days.

Devon here is the secret, majority of tour players started as kids. They just started swinging the club and kept on swinging.No rules, knew no different just swung the club. They developed a repeatable pattern they can execute everytime. Simple

They may have kinetic links but non are exactly the same, different timing, different rhythm, tempo, grip, stance, different plane, timing release all different. List goes on

Devon maybe your problem is not sticking to one thing and master it.You keep on changing, you keep on changing ,how can you develop something repetitive or master it? Keep practicing that one way,right or wrong you will master it and be a skilled golfer. Your now binded by rules Devon and holds you back. Have no rules.

These days I see an OTT golfer I don't change them. I teach them how to master it. They have made thousands of OTT swings it's pretty ingrained. Your flogging a dead horse and only make them worse trying to change that pattern. Interesting enough working with OTT to master it, their swing improves naturally anyway.

If your OTT and break 80 or shoot a par round, are you going to be in the clubhouse disappointed your OTT?

Bubba has it right, refuses to see his golfswing on video. As long as in his own mind he feels his swing is good that's all that matters. No rules . Glad he didn't look on video we may have never heard of him.

Edited by Zenstb, 08 July 2018 - 10:57 PM.

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#17 Devongolfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:08 PM

Excellent! That's the sort of thing I was hoping for, thanks, Zen.

Thanks also to Shanks and others. I have no problem with people saying I am over complicating things. But for the moment, I don't plan to debate that with anyone. Not because I don't think the debate is worth having, but for 2 reasons.

1: I have not come to any conclusions or position on this myself, so do not have a point of view yet that I want to defend
2: I know from past experience that keeping one of these threads moving in something like a consistent direction is impossible if you chase after and debate every counter point.

I will post something on why I am doing this in a mo.

#18 Devongolfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:27 PM

100% agree with Zen's point about OTT. One, out of maybe 7 different pro's I went to, said exactly that. If a buddy of mine who was OTT came to me for advice, I would not dream of pointing him to TGM or Hardy, I would say exactly that, stick with OTT amd focus on short game, course management and so on.

Years ago I had a thread "single figures wothout swing mechanics" talking about how, if your goal is a lower handicap, working on swing mechanics is not the way to go if you have a repeating pattern of any sort.

We are agreeing violently on that, Zen.

Don't forget that I have played for 45 years and managed to "heave and hold off" my way to 6 handicap.

I have said this before in other thread, but I need to explain this here. At the point I had reached 6 with lousy ball striking, I basically felt there was nothing left to interest me in golf. All I could see was round after round dinking it round the course, more or less the same every time.

The only thing I had was this unanswered question, how do you hit a golf ball properly? I decided that this was an interesting project. By this point, I had given all the local teaching pros a good go. So, I decided:

1: regardless of handicap going up, my remaining golf career was going to be about ball striking
2: I was going to own my own learning process. Take advice, sure. Search for resources, definitely. But plot my own course, run my own experiments, make my own decisions. My project.

A bit more in a mo.
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#19 Devongolfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:43 PM

Ok, so this project has turned out to be a lot bigger than I imagined. But it has sustained my interest. And don't forget, also, I won the comp a couple of weeks ago, my handicap is coming down again and my ball striking is already better.

Brownman has a tag line I like, something like "I am a learner". I would say I am a student of swing mechanics at this point.

The first years of my project did not yield much progress, there is so much bad golf instruction material out there.

I thought I had found what I needed in TGM, but I never quite felt like I understood it despite asking experts like Zen, TheDart, and others, getting Lynn Blake videos,etc.

Hardy, as you know from my Hardy thread, is, imo, "the man" when it comes to published resources. I am not saying he knows more that Zen or anyone else, just that he has produced the best book and videos, imo.

The reason my ball striking is better is because of Hardy. I am using a mix of 1 plane RIT and a Zach Johnson style hold off.

But here is the nub of the issue. Success with RIT is critically dependent on finding "the slot" to throw from. You have to get the right forearm on the correct plane, and the shaft aligned with the right forearm.

Finding "the slot" is the job of the transition. And I have not been finding this easy to do. So I have been wondering about the whole transition issue, why is it difficult for me?

nearly done

#20 Devongolfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:57 PM

So, in all that context, the thing that currently interests me is the transition.

I reckon it is hard for me because it requires simultaneous movements in about 5 areas, and I reckon that is not a trivial thing to pull off. Yes I could devote the rest of my life to beating balls to try and groove my transition.

But I know from my life, trying all sorts of sports, that I was never very athletic. In my amateur pseudo sports science kind of thinking, I am saying this requires athletic ability which I have very little of.

So, my new idea that has me excited, and the reason I started this thread, is I reckon if I can stick with RIT and Zach but find ways to reduce the complexity of the transition, I will take another step forward with my ball striking.

As a minimum, this means

1: coming up with ideas for simplification, with, or without, help from my ISG mates
2: trying all these ideas in at least two serious practice sessions
3: taking anything promising out for a few rounds

That will take 4-6 weeks, I reckon, give or take.

Until I get through this process, none of you are going to talk me out of it!

I am quite willing to invest that level of time and effort going up a dead end, if that is what it turns out to be.

On the other hand, if it works, I will come back and argue for anything I have learned.

Does this make more sense?
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#21 Weetbix

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:34 AM

Check out Athletic Motion Golf

I'm with you in having no athletic ability. Never have.

They talk about the need for lateral motion as the driver of transition and they point to the lateral move back to your target side as teh start of the downswing. And they have a video showing a top pro doing that move while their hands are passing their hip height heading up on the backswing. So they have a very different take on transition.

It's the ball tossing motion and we all know we sway a bit back to start and we sway a bit forward to get things going back towards the target when we throw a ball. That's a key aspect of athleticism and timing in golf.

It's been my omly focus lately and has turned my ball striking around.
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#22 Shanks4ever

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 08:55 AM

Matsuyama obviously has had difficulties at times with sequencing the transition. He has played at times with a pause at the top not quite at the Wayne Grady level. This pause obviously allows him time to activate the sequence from the ground up.

 

 

Have you experimented with this?



#23 Devongolfer

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 11:36 AM

Shanks,
middle of the night here, I am buzzing with all of this.

I reckon you are very close with the pause.

My thinking now is that maybe eliminate the transition altogether. After all, if you can't get a good transition with athletic ability, and you need 5 simultaneous swing thoughts to think your way to a good transition, which won't work, then maybe no transition will be better than a bad transition.

A more compact swing where the top of the swing is pretty much "the slot" position.

You can have swing thoughts during the backswing because you have time. As you say, you can even pause if you want. And when practicing, you can stop at the top / slot and "check check check" as Homer said.

Why go way past the slot position on the backswing if you don't have a good way to get back?

There are plenty of good swing mechanics to learn and benefit from in the release zone through the ball, as I know from Hardy. Focus on that and leave the biomechanics to the athletes, maybe?

What do you think?

#24 GPJ_Longdriver

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:12 PM

Pro golfers are athletes?

 

I reckon Colin Montgomerie and Craig Stadler, might not fit the bill ....... not to mention our very own Mr Parry.

 

I reckon hand eye, and a modicum of being able to move ....... is all that's needed. The rest gets done through learning and coaching.


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#25 Devongolfer

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:42 PM

Just a few follow up comments.

Weetbix, thanks for the Athletic motion suggestion. I had a look at their videos. Glad that is working for you, but I am not going down that path, at least for the moment. If my current path turns out to be a dead end, maybe I will go back and give them a fairer hearing.

Shanks, thanks for the pause input re Matsuyama. That will go on my list of things to try.

GPJ, not sure about Monty and Parry, nothing occurs to me to debate on that one way or the other.

#26 Devongolfer

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 04:21 PM

Going back to my earlier post about eliminating the transition. I think eliminate can't be the right term. Obviously, the club and body change direction, so there has to be something between going back and going forward. There must be a transition.

I will try to be more precise with my thoughts and language.

What I think I want to eliminate, or minimise, is how much has to happen between "the top" and "hit the ball". If, at the top, hips, arms, club, hands .. everything, have moved to positions that are absolutely not the positions they need to be in to throw the club for a RIT release, or to "hit the ball", then everything has to readjust itself before you fire at the ball.

BTW, I think two plane pullers and one plane throwers are different in this regard, because a two planer can pull from the top. That may be an argument for me one day giving two plane a proper go, if this latest experiment fails.

One thing Weeti's Atm videos did confirm for me is how short in time the transition is.

So, I can still use the term eliminate about one thing. Eliminate all transition "swing thoughts". There is nothing like enough time.

So, if I eliminate all transition swing thoughts, my body has to do the transition naturally, athletically. But since my body is not doing this well at the moment, which is why I have been trying to fix it with swing thoughts, something has to change.

The only possibility is to look at the setup and backswing. Experiment with adjustments to both of those with the aim of reducing the need for a lot of transition shifts, drops, rotates, tilts, layoffs etc.

So, rather than say I want to eliminate the transition, what I would like to eliminate, or reduce as much as possible, is how much needs to happen between the top and hit the ball.

I may not have much athletic ability, but I must have some. I need to simplify things and keep simplifying until what I need to do comes within the realm of what I can do without thinking about it.

I will keep looking at this thread for useful ideas, but I won't post any more until I have found some things and tried them in practice.
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#27 madness

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:08 PM

These days I see an OTT golfer I don't change them. I teach them how to master it. They have made thousands of OTT swings it's pretty ingrained. Your flogging a dead horse and only make them worse trying to change that pattern. Interesting enough working with OTT to master it, their swing improves naturally anyway.

If your OTT and break 80 or shoot a par round, are you going to be in the clubhouse disappointed your OTT?

 

I agree with this but I also think there are 2 possible drivers of the OTT golf swing. One is physical. The player doesn't have the flexibility to get their hips out of the way. If a playing partner asks me what do with their slice I usually suggest they just allow for it with course management. Assuming the player is a right hander, tee up on the right side of the tee, aim down the left side of the fairway and bring it back into the middle of play and when they stop fighting it their handicap comes down. But sometimes a person aiming further left just starts hitting a bigger slice!!!! They don't seem to be able to see the flight of the ball properly. I have also found this when being asked to help people with their putting. Some people don't understand that a breaking putt is falling into the side of the hole as you look at it, not the front of the hole as you look at it. If I draw a line on the ground where the ball will go they will follow that line and hole the putt but when left on their own they can't see that line and never allow enough for the break. 

Usually at this point I just tell them how crap they are and they should at least pay someone for the bad advice.  :)


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#28 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:13 PM

100% agree with Zen's point about OTT. One, out of maybe 7 different pro's I went to, said exactly that. If a buddy of mine who was OTT came to me for advice, I would not dream of pointing him to TGM or Hardy, I would say exactly that, stick with OTT amd focus on short game, course management and so on.

Years ago I had a thread "single figures wothout swing mechanics" talking about how, if your goal is a lower handicap, working on swing mechanics is not the way to go if you have a repeating pattern of any sort.

We are agreeing violently on that, Zen.

Don't forget that I have played for 45 years and managed to "heave and hold off" my way to 6 handicap.

I have said this before in other thread, but I need to explain this here. At the point I had reached 6 with lousy ball striking, I basically felt there was nothing left to interest me in golf. All I could see was round after round dinking it round the course, more or less the same every time.

The only thing I had was this unanswered question, how do you hit a golf ball properly? I decided that this was an interesting project. By this point, I had given all the local teaching pros a good go. So, I decided:

1: regardless of handicap going up, my remaining golf career was going to be about ball striking
2: I was going to own my own learning process. Take advice, sure. Search for resources, definitely. But plot my own course, run my own experiments, make my own decisions. My project.

A bit more in a mo.

 

I'm with you on this Devon, great thread. Hoping to have a sub 80 score isn't what gets me out of bed in morning. Thinking about how to improve my ball striking with better swing mechanics, does. I can't wait to get out and try what ever new variation I think may be an improvement, its what keeps me from going into deep depression. If I was to spend every day at the golf course, just trying to hit a lower score, I would be a very stressed and depressed golfer. Why would you bother???

 

My philosophy is that if you develop good ball striking technique then a lower score is achievable, while also enjoying the game. More than that, the ability to consistently hit a good score should also be possible, all things being equal. I qualify that because there are other factors that from day to day, determine my ability to play well. Things like not feeling well, injury, stress from work or other influences. I'm sure there are many more factors that can effect your game.

 

My approach is simply that I will do whatever it takes to improve my ball striking. If I have to accept that my handicap will blow out in the process, then so be it. A low handicap is not what I'm there for.


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#29 Zenstb

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 04:25 PM

You can still be OTT and improve your ball striking and consistency. The point I was making is work with the patterns the player has. You can still be OTT pattern and have a kinematic sequence.

This is a little video  showing an OTT player and how I changed the player without trying to change his body movement. This also helps people what OTT is and the cause.


Edited by Zenstb, 10 July 2018 - 04:34 PM.

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#30 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:16 PM

Brilliant, Zen! Many thanks. I will definitely work on that.

The new idea I got from this is using the hands to shallow the club rather than trying to alter the basic path. And since I know I have OTT DNA, working "with the grain" of that makes perfect sense to me rather than fighting it.




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