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Swing Mechanics Without Athletic Ability


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#196 Devongolfer

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:31 PM

Zach pivot.

Returning to my recent theme after a bit of a TGM detour, I have been studying Zach's pivot in the video I posted a week or so ago.

I think this is very interesting. What I am seeing is three moves that reduce the chances of interference between the right elbow and right hip.

First, he allows his right knee to straighten a little more than one might want if one was really trying to resist with the right knee. This moves the right hip back out of the way.

Then he slides his hips to the left, moving the right hip out of the way sideways.

Finally, he delays the turning of the hips keeping the right hip out of the way until the right elbow has come down plane.

To go with that, his foot action keeps the right foot flat quite a long time.

I am associating right hip interference with the "random shocker" shot. Zach is going for relentless consistency, not out and out maximum power, so he does not want random shockers.

Of course, none of us ever actually hit our right hip with our right elbow, that is not the issue. The issue seems to be that if there is any hint of a risk of doing so, we might instinctively go to some sort of compensation move. That could be a roundhouse leading to a flat left shot, or an OTT loop, or whatever.

So, I wanted to try all of this but knew I could not manage 3 extra swing thoughts.

I decided this might be the time to take on board another TGM idea, starting from an Impact Fix position. In this case, it means starting from a position with the hips shifted left. I need to keep things simple, so I wanted to try starting from this position, and maintaining it.

So, bump the hips left at setup, move the left shoulder down rather than around on the backswing, let the right hip move back a little on the backswing, and keep the right heel down on the downswing.

Clear as mud? Thankfully, you can look at Zach on the video. This post is my commentary on what I see in that video, not me inventing swing elements.

Very promising early results. Took all of this out in a comp yesterday, respectable score with no shockers at all.

By the back 9 this pivot was starting to get comfortable, so I then really worked on left arm as the plane arm and Jack's move of aiming pp3 down plane. At that point, I started surprising myself with how good my driving was.

My takeaway from this experiment is that maybe right hip interference is a much bigger deal than I had thought.

I am gaining confidence that Zach will end up being the best example for me to follow.
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#197 Old Poppy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:50 AM

G'day Devon I see you are still on the trail of the elusive golf swing. If you are looking to Zach Johnson's swing you are heading in the right direction. His technique is what some swing experts refer to as a high accuracy tour swing. It is not as powerful as the long hitters but long enough to win majors.

I am very familiar with how this swing works and how effective it is, having played regularly for several years with a fellow club member who owns one. Not only did he win our national amateur but has finished fourth in a US Open, fifth in the Masters (missed a four footer on the 72nd hole to record a 30 for the back nine). He has since won consecutive Australian PGA Championships all before 26 years of age. I actually know how his swing works better than I know my own.

If I had to learn this swing type via YouTube, I don't think it would be possible to connect all the dots. A much better source would be to log into Kelvin Miyahira golf and read his article 2009-10.

Edited by Old Poppy, 10 January 2019 - 08:58 AM.

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#198 Old Poppy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:27 AM

The article is 2009-02 not 10.

#199 Fill the Dill

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:32 AM

The article is 2009-02 not 10.


I started to read 2009-10 and thought it must have been the wrong one.

#200 Fill the Dill

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:34 AM

Here is the link to the article:

http://kelvinmiyahir...mized-mft-swing
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#201 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:17 PM

OP,

incredibly helpful and encouraging, many thanks
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#202 Devongolfer

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:42 AM

3 rounds this week, and only one "blob" hole, which was due to a duffed chip over a bunker. Normally, a round without a blob is not uncommon, but far from the norm, so this is a very good sign that Zach really does deliver on consistency / control.

I reckon I have it working about 85% at the moment. I still need to nail down some details of the setup and arm action, but the Zach pivot seems golden.

With OP's comments confirming my preliminary conclusion, I reckon my search for a swing pattern is over and it is time to stick with and optimise Zach.

Thanks to everyone who made helpful and / or encouraging comments on this thread.
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#203 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:27 AM

3 rounds this week, and only one "blob" hole, which was due to a duffed chip over a bunker. Normally, a round without a blob is not uncommon, but far from the norm, so this is a very good sign that Zach really does deliver on consistency / control.
I reckon I have it working about 85% at the moment. I still need to nail down some details of the setup and arm action, but the Zach pivot seems golden.
With OP's comments confirming my preliminary conclusion, I reckon my search for a swing pattern is over and it is time to stick with and optimise Zach.
Thanks to everyone who made helpful and / or encouraging comments on this thread.


Great to hear Devon. After all the effort you have put into understanding your swing mechanics, it’s time to just swing and enjoy the game. At least now, when things go wrong, you will have a good idea of what the problem is. Still love to hear your thoughts on any minor adjustments you make.

Cheers
Jack

#204 iRON MiCK

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:47 AM

I for one would like to continue the journey with you and how close to par you are?
The score isn’t always a reflection of how much you enjoy the game but it is a good indicator of improvement.
Using the Zach method has got you playing consistently so how close to par is it?
Thanks and much love 🙂

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#205 Old Poppy

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 02:42 PM

OP,
incredibly helpful and encouraging, many thanks

Happy to help. I would have thought that you would have leant towards Bryson's pivot given your TGM background. Can't get a much simple pivot than Bryson's. He sets up with high hips (as do all elite golfers,their butt pointing upwards),then he rotates both hamstrings clockwise during the backswing keeping he hips level. During transition he rotates the left hammy counterclockwise, which lowers that hip through external rotation and abduction. The right hammy follows with counterclockwise rotation when the left side of he pelvis has been separated from the right. This separation of the hips is the squat move which sets up the second fire of the hips when both hammies and both glutes are rotating counterclockwise together.

Zach does the same sequence of movements as Bryson, but not as obvious.

Best to keep it simple - that is what the pros do.

#206 Devongolfer

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 06:07 PM

There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in the Hardy and one plane threads, Zen is moving things forward again.

But I want to highlight something 333pg333 posted on page 9 of the Hardy thread about Clearing the hips, pros vs ams.

The pro in the video is moving his hips somewhat like zach but the youtube makes the point very much more vividly.

This video made me realise that I had an unconscious assumption that the right hip moved back then moved forward again. That video shows something totally different.

The commentary talks about Time and Space. Not relativity, time to hit the ball and space, meaning hip clearance. Hip clearance means that the right hip does not get in the path of the right elbow but also the left hip does not get "stuck" in the way as you come into impact.

Time relates to a comment I really like from Pete Croker when he talks about "chasing the left shoulder", which could just as easily be chasing the left hip. The point is feeling rushed because the hips set off leaving the arms to play catch up as best they can.

I need time, I need space to hit the ball.

I really really like that.

It speaks to my feeling when I hit a good one. I feel like I have time to hit the ball, and I feel like I am attacking from the inside.

Bad ones are all over in a rush. Backswing, blur, ball gone, "did anyone see where it went?".

I think the concepts of Time and Space will play very nicely into my search for the simplest, least demanding of athleticism, pattern.

Thanks, 333.

#207 Forrest Gardener

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 06:57 PM

...

The pro in the video is moving his hips somewhat like zach but the youtube makes the point very much more vividly.

This video made me realise that I had an unconscious assumption that the right hip moved back then moved forward again. That video shows something totally different.

...

 

 

It's interesting what different people take from the same video. What I saw in the pro swing was that the centre point of his hips moved right and left pretty much parallel to the target line and his hips rotated clockwise and then anti-clockwise around that moving centre point.

 

That's a pretty good recipe for an effective motion. I'd be surprised that any top level player would deviate much from that pattern.


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#208 333pg333

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:29 AM

G'day Devon I see you are still on the trail of the elusive golf swing. If you are looking to Zach Johnson's swing you are heading in the right direction. His technique is what some swing experts refer to as a high accuracy tour swing. It is not as powerful as the long hitters but long enough to win majors.

I am very familiar with how this swing works and how effective it is, having played regularly for several years with a fellow club member who owns one. Not only did he win our national amateur but has finished fourth in a US Open, fifth in the Masters (missed a four footer on the 72nd hole to record a 30 for the back nine). He has since won consecutive Australian PGA Championships all before 26 years of age. I actually know how his swing works better than I know my own.

If I had to learn this swing type via YouTube, I don't think it would be possible to connect all the dots. A much better source would be to log into Kelvin Miyahira golf and read his article 2009-10.

More dots joined. You must be talking about Brad Hughes. Over the Christmas break I 'rediscovered' Hogan for myself and then found Brad Hughes online. Always admired his swing and ballstriking. Spent the money and joined up to his site. Haven't delved too much just yet. Just got an email from his site to join in with their forum. 

 

There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in the Hardy and one plane threads, Zen is moving things forward again.

But I want to highlight something 333pg333 posted on page 9 of the Hardy thread about Clearing the hips, pros vs ams.

The pro in the video is moving his hips somewhat like zach but the youtube makes the point very much more vividly.

This video made me realise that I had an unconscious assumption that the right hip moved back then moved forward again. That video shows something totally different.

The commentary talks about Time and Space. Not relativity, time to hit the ball and space, meaning hip clearance. Hip clearance means that the right hip does not get in the path of the right elbow but also the left hip does not get "stuck" in the way as you come into impact.

Time relates to a comment I really like from Pete Croker when he talks about "chasing the left shoulder", which could just as easily be chasing the left hip. The point is feeling rushed because the hips set off leaving the arms to play catch up as best they can.

I need time, I need space to hit the ball.

I really really like that.

It speaks to my feeling when I hit a good one. I feel like I have time to hit the ball, and I feel like I am attacking from the inside.

Bad ones are all over in a rush. Backswing, blur, ball gone, "did anyone see where it went?".

I think the concepts of Time and Space will play very nicely into my search for the simplest, least demanding of athleticism, pattern.

Thanks, 333.

Happy to contribute. I think following something Old Poppy said in regards to loading the inside of right leg on backswing being the cause of the old 'up and out' motion ( a killer for anyone!) on the downswing, I might try to let the right hip rotate a little more and not place so much restriction/tension into the body. 

 

I've been really concentrating on keeping the right arm / wrist bent into the ball and now am thinking about really bowing/rotating left wrist into ball. Hit some really solid irons. e.g. 4x 8 iron 155-160mtrs uphill the other day. But the bad shots are pull hooks. So this led me to think about the old TGM mantra 'Down & out'. But then I remembered something in one of these threads on here where some of you are talking about feeling the grip going left and upwards post impact (I think?) so that had me wondering how one melds the two actions. Assuming the feeling of D&O is down and into/slightly after impact but then the grip is pulled/positioned left & up. Made me think this is very difficult to achieve or at least keep in the brain. Especially as one gets older (58 yrs AGU 7.0) and brain becomes a little less functional. 

 

So then in trying to streamline and minimise thoughts pre and during swing I'm currently at. Relaxed setup. Soft fingers/hands promoting loss of tension. Soft and slower takeaway and a little shorter than normal. I don't have a downswing thought or prompt. Just trying to keep shape in posture and arms. Then just thinking about that really strong impact position and the rest is in the result. 

 

Looking at that Zach Johnson swing in the link above. His legs look quite Hogan-ish indeed. The hips then just do a pretty sedate bump to left on D/S but don't over-rotate up and outwards. Do like. 


Edited by 333pg333, 19 January 2019 - 10:31 AM.


#209 333pg333

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 05:37 PM

G'day Devon I see you are still on the trail of the elusive golf swing. If you are looking to Zach Johnson's swing you are heading in the right direction. His technique is what some swing experts refer to as a high accuracy tour swing. It is not as powerful as the long hitters but long enough to win majors.

I am very familiar with how this swing works and how effective it is, having played regularly for several years with a fellow club member who owns one. Not only did he win our national amateur but has finished fourth in a US Open, fifth in the Masters (missed a four footer on the 72nd hole to record a 30 for the back nine). He has since won consecutive Australian PGA Championships all before 26 years of age. I actually know how his swing works better than I know my own.

If I had to learn this swing type via YouTube, I don't think it would be possible to connect all the dots. A much better source would be to log into Kelvin Miyahira golf and read his article 2009-10.

What do you think of his explanation about hand path here?     


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#210 Devongolfer

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:59 PM

333,

I think you are asking OP, so I will let OP answer.

My new thing is "space" and "time", and yes, I do have a tendency to see what I am looking for in these videos.

That being said, Bradley does emphasise space first, in the talk about the space between the right hip and elbow.

Then he talks about a different sequence. He is not advocating "starting with the hips", he talks about two releases. First, release the arms and then release the body.

Time is created by not chasing the pivot with the arms, instead starting with the arms and letting the pivot react and follow.

So, again to my eyes, Bradley is maximising both space and time.

In the context of Hardy and Zach, another way to say something similar is the difference between "left arm is the plane arm" in zach and a transition that makes the "right arm the plane arm".

To make the right arm the plane arm, you first have to drop the hands "down", which Bardley calls "in", whereas to keep the left arm as the plane arm, the hands go out more, but that is relative to the first example and is really down plane.




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