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Phil....2 Strokes Or Dq?


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#181 Rogaman

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 02:39 PM

languid

 

Re: My previous comment as follows:

 

"As to the question of the need for a change to Rule 1-2, I think it would be a very simple matter to include in the ‘new rules’ a section which provides the ‘Committee’ with the power to, in addition to specific provisions within the rules, impose a penalty of disqualification on any player whose contravention of the Rules is deemed to have been prejudicial to the interest of the game. I am not aware as to whether this is already included in the draft rules on Committee powers and responsibilities. My main interest has just been on the provision of consistent, clear and concise rules for the players."

 

 

In the draft 'new' rules (which I had not read since their publication) the following statement was included in Rule 1.2.a:

 

The Committee may disqualify you for serious misconduct that is contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

 

You may have noted the following provision in the approved 'new' rules (which I have only just read):

 

1.2 Standards of Player Conduct

a. Conduct Expected of All Players

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

  • Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.
  • Showing consideration to others – for example, by playing at a prompt pace, looking out for the safety of others, and not distracting the play of another player.
  • Taking good care of the course – for example, by replacing divots, smoothing bunkers, repairing ball-marks, and not causing unnecessary damage to the course.

There is no penalty under the Rules for failing to act in this way, except that the Committee may disqualify a player for acting contrary to the spirit of the game if it finds that the player has committed serious misconduct.

 

Penalties other than disqualification may be imposed for player misconduct only if those penalties are adopted as part of a Code of Conduct under Rule 1.2b.

 

 

One would have thought that this would cover the PM situation nicely.

 

Anyone who deliberately breached the rules (and had considered doing so several times previously) and bragged publicly about how  smart this had been, would clearly be in contravention of the requirement to act with integrity and could summarily be dealt with by disqualification.


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#182 languid

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:47 PM

languid
 
Re: My previous comment as follows:
 
"As to the question of the need for a change to Rule 1-2, I think it would be a very simple matter to include in the ‘new rules’ a section which provides the ‘Committee’ with the power to, in addition to specific provisions within the rules, impose a penalty of disqualification on any player whose contravention of the Rules is deemed to have been prejudicial to the interest of the game. I am not aware as to whether this is already included in the draft rules on Committee powers and responsibilities. My main interest has just been on the provision of consistent, clear and concise rules for the players."
 
 
In the draft 'new' rules (which I had not read since their publication) the following statement was included in Rule 1.2.a:
 
The Committee may disqualify you for serious misconduct that is contrary to the spirit of the game.
 
 
You may have noted the following provision in the approved 'new' rules (which I have only just read):
 
1.2 Standards of Player Conduct

a. Conduct Expected of All Players
All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

  • Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.
  • Showing consideration to others – for example, by playing at a prompt pace, looking out for the safety of others, and not distracting the play of another player.
  • Taking good care of the course – for example, by replacing divots, smoothing bunkers, repairing ball-marks, and not causing unnecessary damage to the course.
There is no penalty under the Rules for failing to act in this way, except that the Committee may disqualify a player for acting contrary to the spirit of the game if it finds that the player has committed serious misconduct.
 
Penalties other than disqualification may be imposed for player misconduct only if those penalties are adopted as part of a Code of Conduct under Rule 1.2b.
 
 
One would have thought that this would cover the PM situation nicely.
 
Anyone who deliberately breached the rules (and had considered doing so several times previously) and bragged publicly about how  smart this had been, would clearly be in contravention of the requirement to act with integrity and could summarily be dealt with by disqualification.

I disagree with your conclusion.
Phil Mickelson’s action was covered by a Rule quite clearly.
Decision 33-7/8 refers to ETIQUETTE. Spirit if the Game is the first item in Etiquette. The Committee ruled no DQ. Correctly I believe.
I was not surprised.
There was no serious misconduct.
The USGA group setting up the course did a poor job. I think in part it is a result of an obsession with providing a course that is many strokes more difficult than par.
The players are phenomenal. Tricking up a course so it is a huge lottery is not clever at this level or at Club level for that matter

The main issue I have is Hole placements combined with green speeds and planarity or lack of it in the vicinity of the hole.

#183 Hokey Pokey

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:52 PM

There was no serious misconduct.


What would you consider serious misconduct?

#184 Goldy

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 05:36 PM

The main issue I have is Hole placements combined with green speeds and planarity or lack of it in the vicinity of the hole.

 

And yet only one player in the entire field over 4 days decided to take it upon himself to flaunt the rules.

 

Again...what would you consider serious misconduct?


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#185 Rogaman

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 06:17 PM

I disagree with your conclusion.
Phil Mickelson’s action was covered by a Rule quite clearly.
Decision 33-7/8 refers to ETIQUETTE. Spirit if the Game is the first item in Etiquette. The Committee ruled no DQ. Correctly I believe.
I was not surprised.
There was no serious misconduct.
The USGA group setting up the course did a poor job. I think in part it is a result of an obsession with providing a course that is many strokes more difficult than par.
The players are phenomenal. Tricking up a course so it is a huge lottery is not clever at this level or at Club level for that matter

The main issue I have is Hole placements combined with green speeds and planarity or lack of it in the vicinity of the hole.

 

Your Question was:

This suggests that RULE 1-2 needs change to give proper guidance to anybody wanting to understand what is unacceptable and the penalty applicable.
Do you think this can be done without an extremely wordy modification?

 

May answer is:

From 1 January 2019, Rule 1.2.a does it, and very simply. The Rule states:

Acting with integrity = following the rules

Therefore, not following the rules = breach of integrity

PS: Following the Rules does not include incurring a deliberate penalty as a penalty implies that a rule has been breached (ie: not followed). Deliberately breaching the Rules is about as SERIOUS as it can get.


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#186 OldBogey

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 06:32 PM

I would think that punching somebody or wrestling would be serious misconduct.
Being blatantly abusive or insulting would be a step back from that.

Just hitting your own ball when you're not supposed to, not in the same class of seriousness.

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#187 Hokey Pokey

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 06:36 PM

I would think that punching somebody or wrestling would be serious misconduct.
Being blatantly abusive or insulting would be a step back from that.
Just hitting your own ball when you're not supposed to, not in the same class of seriousness.


Thanks, languid.

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#188 Rogaman

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 07:48 PM

I would think that punching somebody or wrestling would be serious misconduct.
Being blatantly abusive or insulting would be a step back from that.

Just hitting your own ball when you're not supposed to, not in the same class of seriousness.

 

OldBogey

You are operating out of context.

You may not have caught up with the fact that the word 'etiquette' does not appear in the 'new' rules of golf for players.

Punching someone may be a breach of etiquette (or just basic bad behaviour) but it is not a breach of the players' rules. Deliberately breaching the rules is a breach of the rules.

Rule 1.2.a addresses integrity, consideration for others in the way you play (pace, safety, distraction) and taking care of the course.

Rule 1.2.b covers 'code of conduct' to be established by the Committee as a Local Rule. 'Punching, wrestling or insulting' might well be covered in such a code - depending, of course, on the natural proclivities of the membership.



#189 languid

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:49 PM

“Serious Misconduct” on the golf course is a matter of opinion. It is subjective.
Repeated profanity and blasphemies could qualify depending in the sensitivity of the culture in which these things happen.
Think about different countries, different deities and societal norms.
Removing some clothing may be seen as a serious matter.
It will be a matter for the Committee in charge of the Competition.
I think there is a chance several of our contributors could receive a flogging in some countries if they didn’t remember where they were and were having a bad day . The Match Committee of the US OPEN clearly considered the Mickelson conduct and saw no serious misconduct under current Rules. I think the same would apply if the New Rules were in force.
Some misconduct would probably be universally considered SERIOUS. Think category of assault. If someone assaulted a person on the course with a golf club for example, it would have a good chance of being Serious. It depends on the facts.

Edited by languid, 06 July 2018 - 03:51 PM.

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#190 Weetbix

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 04:59 PM

Stopping a ball from rolling into a hazard is serious

But stopping a ball rolling off the green and into a swale isn’t

So the line is apparently between those two actions

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#191 Hokey Pokey

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 05:05 PM

Stopping a ball from rolling into a hazard is serious
But stopping a ball rolling off the green and into a swale isn’t
So the line is apparently between those two actions


I think it’s different cause he ran after his ball.
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#192 pegasus2357

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 05:37 PM

I think it’s different cause he ran after his ball.


Thought that was an earthquake...
Woops sorry wrong thread

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#193 languid

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 09:38 PM

Stopping a ball from rolling into a hazard is serious
But stopping a ball rolling off the green and into a swale isn’t
So the line is apparently between those two actions

i
We have been through this before ...there is a big difference between stopping or deflecting a ball and making a stroke at the moving ball.
Only the player can make a stroke . Rule 14-5 covers the moving ball situation.
His caddie or his equipment or a player may stop or deflect the ball.
Quite different and not anything to do with 14-5.
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#194 Weetbix

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 11:15 PM

No it doesn't have anything to do with 14-5 and we have gone over this before and nothing said has justified that preventing a ball going into a hazard qualifies for DQ but that that is sufficiently more serious than what Phil did so he didn't warrant a DQ

I could care less about whether its a stroke or not - it's a breach that should have been determined to be serious and under 33-7 led to a DQ

Phil deliberately broke the rules of golf for reason of getting an advantage and in an outrageous way which is against the very nature of the game itself

Endless cycles of argument about whether it was a stroke don't matter a rat's arse - it was by any reasonable definition a serious breach of etiquette
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#195 golfguy33

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 09:47 AM

Stopping a ball from rolling into a hazard is serious

But stopping a ball rolling off the green and into a swale isn’t

So the line is apparently between those two actions

That's a very interesting point you've made Weeti about where the ball was going to finish and something that I'd not considered before. Because Phil had hit the ball before it got to finish its travels we can't be sure if it was going to just roll off the green or it might have taken a different turn and gone into the bunker/hazard ?

Should the ruling have also considered what might have happened because he hit a moving ball and the seriousness of it then being either a penalty or disqualification ?

Jon... 






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