Jump to content


 

Photo

Ball At Rest Moves - Unusual


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 Brianwh

Brianwh

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 03 May 2018 - 07:38 PM

Player prefers a lie (currently playing lift, clean and place due to recent wet weather) on a fairly steep bank adjacent to a green. He addresses the ball which rolls back and comes to rest against his club. Player says he did not cause the ball to move. When he moved his club the ball remained in position.

Is the player deemed to have caused the ball to move? Does he incur a penalty for his ball striking his equipment? Or should he play the ball from its new position with no penalty.

Would be interested in opinions. Thanks.

#2 AAA

AAA

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3074 posts

Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:52 PM

Have a look at these decisions

 

http://www.usga.org/...on-18,d18-2-0.5

 

http://www.usga.org/...sion-18,d18-2-6



#3 pom

pom

    Old Grouch.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 11901 posts
  • Locationtownsville

Posted 04 May 2018 - 09:09 AM

These type of situations are very difficult to rule on as you really need to be there to see what actually happened.Otherwise you have to go with the evidence supplied by anyone that did see the incident.

 I would suggest from your description of the incident that when the player addressed the ball he caused it to move. He would not have to actually touch the ball to do that.

  In this situation the player would receive a 1 stroke penalty whichever way the ruling. The only difference would be the position of the ball before the next stroke and as the ball did not move when the club was removed the difference between the balls original position and the position that the ball finished in would be negligable.


Member of the Vision Test Pilot Project.
No VTPP11

#4 Birdie Blitz

Birdie Blitz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 262 posts

Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:36 AM

In all likelihood the grounding of the club has caused the grass holding the ball in position to move resulting in the ball moving and therefore the player incurs a one shot penalty. Otherwise as pom points out his club has stopped the ball in motion for one shot penalty.

 

This is one of the things that frustrates me about the pedenticalness of golf - did the player receive any benefit from the ball rolling a tiny distance (most likely not - in fact it probably was in detriment as it was from a preferred lie).



#5 rogolf

rogolf

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 459 posts

Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:41 AM

In all likelihood the grounding of the club has caused the grass holding the ball in position to move resulting in the ball moving and therefore the player incurs a one shot penalty. Otherwise as pom points out his club has stopped the ball in motion for one shot penalty.

 

This is one of the things that frustrates me about the pedenticalness of golf - did the player receive any benefit from the ball rolling a tiny distance (most likely not - in fact it probably was in detriment as it was from a preferred lie).

Forget about whether or not the player received any benefit.  The penalties are applied according to any potential benefit being gained. We don't need players or referees making decisions on whether an actual benefit was gained and the appeal processes following this analysis (that would be really pedantic).  Accept the ruling based on the facts and get back to playing the game.


Edited by rogolf, 04 May 2018 - 10:42 AM.


#6 Brianwh

Brianwh

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 04 May 2018 - 01:14 PM

Thanks to those making the effort to answer. A couple of additional points not included initially as the post was a bit long:

Playing partners did not see the incident and and only knew when they were alerted by the player. I assume you would take a players word if he claimed that he believed he had not caused the ball to move.

What was more controversial, the player felt that while the ball settled against his club, his club did not cause it to stop. However he accepted that, on balance this was improbable.

#7 Weetbix

Weetbix

    Par in my sight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 41654 posts
  • LocationBrisbane, Queensland

Posted 04 May 2018 - 01:18 PM

Him believing that makes it hard to believe his initial assertion that he didn’t cause it to move
  • pom likes this
Handicap
Best result: 2 over 74 at Hills International on 13 Feb 2016
Eagles: 21/10/16 17th Keysborough, 24/10/16 18th Woodlands, 15/4/18 16th Carbrook
Goal: A round at par or better!
Brisbane Fairways 2015 Club Champion
Winner: 2015 Nationals day 5 round at Links Hope Island
Winner: 2016 Nationals day 5 round at Woodlands
Winner: 2017 Nationals day 5 round at Bonnie Doon
South East Queensland Golf Group - Treasurer
http://www.brisbanef...ssocialgolf.com - Treasurer

#8 Birdie Blitz

Birdie Blitz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 262 posts

Posted 04 May 2018 - 03:02 PM

OK so no one saw it, the player has called it on himself but claims he wasn't at fault. What was the outcome decided?

 

My opinion would be that if no one saw the ball move/stop, the player has notified his playing partners with his version of events which can't be disproved (even though unlikely), there certainly hasn't been any advantage gained - I would say play on.



#9 ColinCL

ColinCL

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • LocationEdinburgh, Scotland

Posted 04 May 2018 - 04:13 PM

Coincidentally, a similar thing happened to me last week except the ball rolled forward.  Immediately I  grounded my club behind my ball on a slope, the ball moved.  Had I caused it to move?   Ball on slope; put club on grass behind the ball; ball moved.   Never thought twice about it - of course I had.  Mumbled to myself about my stupidity and got on with it.  

 

What I would want to ask  the  player in the OP's description is what makes him think he didn't cause the movement.  Which I suppose is starting from a presumption of guilt.  ;)


  • pom likes this

#10 golfguy33

golfguy33

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2406 posts

Posted 04 May 2018 - 06:01 PM

Coincidentally, a similar thing happened to me last week except the ball rolled forward.  Immediately I  grounded my club behind my ball on a slope, the ball moved.  Had I caused it to move?   Ball on slope; put club on grass behind the ball; ball moved.   Never thought twice about it - of course I had.  Mumbled to myself about my stupidity and got on with it.  

 

What I would want to ask  the  player in the OP's description is what makes him think he didn't cause the movement.  Which I suppose is starting from a presumption of guilt.  ;)

Did you put the ball back into its original position or forget and then take the 2 stroke penalty ?

Jon... 



#11 ColinCL

ColinCL

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • LocationEdinburgh, Scotland

Posted 04 May 2018 - 06:05 PM

Did you put the ball back into its original position or forget and then take the 2 stroke penalty ?

Jon... 

I was I was just playing on my own and so it didn't really matter but I'll re-write the last sentence of the first paragraph:

 

Mumbled to myself about my stupidity and got on with it in accordance with the Rules of Golf, incurring a one stroke penalty.    

:)

 

And I should add that in a competition on Monday when faced with a ball on a downhill lie I was unsurprisingly very careful not to address the ball.  I do learn from experience, although usually only for a short time as it is too quickly forgotten.  It's an age thing.


Edited by ColinCL, 04 May 2018 - 06:08 PM.


#12 languid

languid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1868 posts

Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:37 PM

AAA
My compliments on providing an effective and brief specific answer via the Decisions References.
  • AAA likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users