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Rule 1-2 Exerting Influence On Ball


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#16 languid

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:27 AM

Or he could just have been saving the ball for his mate and Dave plays it as entering the hazard, takes his drop, plays on, and says thanks to Ralph for saving his ball from drowning?

When Ralph stops the ball for his mate, Ralph it is most likely because he is saving Dave’s ball from being possibly lost or irretrievable from the Hazard.
That is a real situation. I have seen it happen. It was a long time ago, not at my current Course. At the other Club a par 5 has a typical third stroke over a dam from usually a downhill lie. There is a bunker running the full length of the green, behind the green.
As you would expect play from the bunker has a good fear factor and if the bunker shot is caught thin the dam will be a likely place for the Ball to finish.
At that time I was not familiar with the Rules, had no idea what might apply . I think the bloke whose ball was stopped thanked his mate and wiped the hole.
My new course does not have a bunker behind but the scenario I put in the original post is similar except for the bunker. It is a par 3.

#17 Weetbix

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 11:42 AM

Agree Languid - totally unlikely that anyone was trying to cheat and that Dave wouldn’t just play it like the ball went in the water like it was going to

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#18 hack2489

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:36 PM

Wtf is wrong with you. That's the most preposterous thing ever posted in the rules forum.


Your sounding fired up ghetto?

You gave the new bloke in the other thread a spray and now poor old Weeti copes it.

About time you had a trip in your camper van? Relaxing trip in the country, away from the shire golf and crap weather, perhaps?

#19 hack2489

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:38 PM

Or he could just have been saving the ball for his mate and Dave plays it as entering the hazard, takes his drop, plays on, and says thanks to Ralph for saving his ball from drowning?


And, hopefully Dave bought the first shout at the 19th too.
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#20 GhettoGolfer

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:41 PM

Your sounding fired up ghetto?

You gave the new bloke in the other thread a spray and now poor old Weeti copes it.

About time you had a trip in your camper van? Relaxing trip in the country, away from the shire golf and crap weather, perhaps?


That was my tongue planted firmly in Weeti's butt-cheek Hack lol.

Brownman isn't a new guy and is quite prone to making cryptic and passive aggressive posts. He has been lurking around here for close to 7 or 8 years.
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#21 iRON MiCK

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 12:48 PM

Brownman is an acronym for turd with eyes.


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#22 languid

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 02:55 PM

I asked a knowledgeable Rules person a question along the lines of the reflexive , instictive action of stopping a Ball in motion.

Here is the essence of the scenario I put.

Preamble...the intent can be quite obvious..
“ what is not clear to me is the situation where stopping the ball is more reflex perhaps barely 2 seconds, the outside agency sticking out his foot to stop a ball going into a water hazard, for example. I think there is intention even though there is little thought”

The response is maybe reflexive is less than 2 seconds but be that as it may..
“ the Committee in charge of the competition would need to examine all the facts and make a decision. Decision 14/1.5 notes any doubt regarding the player’s intent must be resolved against the player.”
It is in a different area of the Rules but it deals with intent.
I think my knowledgeable friend has nailed it.

#23 Monty85

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 01:31 PM

I asked a knowledgeable Rules person a question along the lines of the reflexive , instictive action of stopping a Ball in motion.

 

What about this scenario:

 

Player A has a putt for 1 point in a stableford comp. Putt misses the hole and rolls near player B. Player A says he is out and done and is wiping the hole. Player B picks up the ball as it rolls to him (before it stops moving) and tosses it back to Player A.


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#24 rogolf

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 02:59 PM

What about this scenario:

 

Player A has a putt for 1 point in a stableford comp. Putt misses the hole and rolls near player B. Player A says he is out and done and is wiping the hole. Player B picks up the ball as it rolls to him (before it stops moving) and tosses it back to Player A.

Stableford is stroke play, so player B is an outside agency.  Covered by Rule 19-1, not by Rule 1-2.



#25 OldBogey

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 03:15 PM

Stableford is stroke play, so player B is an outside agency.  Covered by Rule 19-1, not by Rule 1-2.

 

But 19-1 says that if the outside agency is a fellow competitor then 1-2 applies to the fellow competitor.


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#26 ColinCL

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 04:46 PM

But 19-1 says that if the outside agency is a fellow competitor then 1-2 applies to the fellow competitor.

 

 

19-1 applies to the stopping or deflection of the ball by an outside agency., including a fellow competitor.  It tells A what do to do after this has happened.

 

As a separate issue, 1-2 can apply to B as a fellow competitor who has deliberately stopped or deflected A's ball.   But in this case, since A had stated that he was out of the hole, he has in effect authorised B to pick up his ball.  That it was moving at the time doesn't matter.  There is no way I would penalise anyone for a helfpul action like that.

 

In a different situation where B deliberately stops A's moving ball without any authority, A would proceed in the same way according to 19-1, but B could well be penalised under 1-2.

 

Hope that's clear.

 

 


Edited by ColinCL, 25 June 2018 - 04:46 PM.

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#27 pom

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 07:33 PM

Surely once A has called the hole as wiped the ball is out of play & no rule applies to  any action concerning that ball..


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#28 ColinCL

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 12:51 AM

Surely once A has called the hole as wiped the ball is out of play & no rule applies to  any action concerning that ball..

Strictly speaking, I would say not.  A statement such as "I'm picking up" doesn't have any standing in the rules.  You could lift your ball or have it lifted because of a misunderstanding of the score and then replace it with a one stroke penalty, fot example.  



#29 Monty85

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 08:39 AM

But in this case, since A had stated that he was out of the hole, he has in effect authorised B to pick up his ball.  That it was moving at the time doesn't matter.  There is no way I would penalise anyone for a helfpul action like that.

 

Has he authorised anything though? It's just a statement saying they are finished, not "please get my ball for me".

 

I do agree that I would never try to penalise anyone for this and I've seen this exact scenario 100's of times.

 

 

Strictly speaking, I would say not.  A statement such as "I'm picking up" doesn't have any standing in the rules.  You could lift your ball or have it lifted because of a misunderstanding of the score and then replace it with a one stroke penalty, fot example.  

 

That is basically the perspective I am coming from.

 

If another player witnesses this would they have a case to bring it to the committee and have the players involved penalised.

 

In the same way, is Player A now in a breach for not cancelling and replaying the stroke.


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#30 ColinCL

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 02:46 PM

I'm happy to  consider a clear statement from a player that he is out of the hole/picking up as implicit authority for another player to pick up his ball for him.  Given that, it follows that no breach of 1-2 has occurred.

 

 If the other  player made a mistake in thinking that the such a statement had been made and stopped and picked up the ball, there would be no breach of 1-2 as he had no intention of influencing the movement of a ball in play.


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