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Rule 1-2 Exerting Influence On Ball


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#1 languid

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 12:29 PM

Scenario 

Individual stroke play.

Player "Dave" has a chip shot from off the green. He blades the shot and it is headed for a lateral water hazard on the other side of the green. 

Fellow-Competitor "Ralph" is standing near the water hazard and deliberately stops the ball just short of the lateral water hazard.

 

1.From where does Dave play his next stroke?

2. What penalties apply if Ralph's action to stop the ball if was instinctive and not premeditated?

3. What penalties apply if  Ralph's action was premeditated and he stationed himself at a place where he might see a mishit stroke go?

4. What penalties apply if Dave had asked Ralph to position himself so he could stop the ball if necessary to prevent it going into the lateral water hazard.?

 



#2 OldBogey

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 02:27 PM

The answers are in the rules.
1. From where it came to rest.
2. Two penalty strokes to Ralph.
3. Disqualified.
4. Also disqualified.

#3 languid

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 02:31 PM

OB please elaborate on 2,3 and 4.
Anybody else?

#4 OldBogey

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 04:28 PM

OB please elaborate on 2,3 and 4.
Anybody else?

2. is the penalty specified in the rule.

3 & 4. are serious breaches causing DQ.

What more do you want?

#5 AAA

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 05:54 PM

OB's post was brief and to the point but perhaps more would have been less cryptic.


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#6 ColinCL

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 07:25 PM

Scenario 

Individual stroke play.

Player "Dave" has a chip shot from off the green. He blades the shot and it is headed for a lateral water hazard on the other side of the green. 

Fellow-Competitor "Ralph" is standing near the water hazard and deliberately stops the ball just short of the lateral water hazard.

 

1.From where does Dave play his next stroke?

2. What penalties apply if Ralph's action to stop the ball if was instinctive and not premeditated?

3. What penalties apply if  Ralph's action was premeditated and he stationed himself at a place where he might see a mishit stroke go?

4. What penalties apply if Dave had asked Ralph to position himself so he could stop the ball if necessary to prevent it going into the lateral water hazard.?

If, as I read it, Q1 relates to a deliberate action by Dave, then the ball is not played from where it came to rest but from where it is estimated it would have ended up had it not been stopped. [Note to 19-1]



#7 languid

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 09:03 PM

If, as I read it, Q1 relates to a deliberate action by Dave, then the ball is not played from where it came to rest but from where it is estimated it would have ended up had it not been stopped. [Note to 19-1]


Colin Dave played the stroke, Ralph is a fellow competitor, not a spectator in the scenario.

#8 rogolf

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 11:27 PM

Colin Dave played the stroke, Ralph is a fellow competitor, not a spectator in the scenario.

However, a fellow-competitor is also an outside agency, the same status as a spectator.  The Note to 19-1 is applicable.



#9 languid

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:41 AM

Taking the base scenario.
Dave blades his chip . Ralph stops the ball by an action that was not planned (premeditated).
However the stopping of the ball is not accidental. There is intent.
Rule 1-2(1) applies.
Ralph must be penalised.
Colin and Rogolf point out the Note to Rule 19-1 applies.
It would be estimated the Ball would have come to rest in the lateral water hazard Dave is not going to get a “significant advantage” Refer to Note 1 Rule 1-2. This means Ralph does no get assessed as committing a Serious Breach and his Penalty is 2 strokes.
Dave must proceed dropping the ball in the Hazard and playing it from there or under penalty of one stroke proceed under the Water Hazard Rule.
One of those options is to have another crack at the chip he messed up.
I hope I have this right.
In the next scenario 3. Ralph sets up to stop the ball if necessary and when he does so the penalty to Ralph applies, and the Notes Rule 19-1 and Rule 1-2[i), also..
the effect is the same as the base scenario. Ralph is not Disqualified.
I hope I have got this.
Now I would like somebody to analyse the last scenario which involved collusion by Ralph and Dave. I am struggling to come up with Disqualification for either party.

#10 ColinCL

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:25 AM

Taking the base scenario.
Dave blades his chip . Ralph stops the ball by an action that was not planned (premeditated).
However the stopping of the ball is not accidental. There is intent.

Sorry, but I can't get past this point as what you say is contradictory.  If it was Ralph's intention to stop the ball, then his action must have been premeditated.  



#11 AAA

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 05:39 AM

It would be estimated the Ball would have come to rest in the lateral water hazard Dave is not going to get a “significant advantage” Refer to Note 1 Rule 1-2. This means Ralph does no get assessed as committing a Serious Breach and his Penalty is 2 strokes.
 

Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage or has placed another player, other than his partner, at a significant disadvantage



#12 Weetbix

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 06:57 AM

Or he could just have been saving the ball for his mate and Dave plays it as entering the hazard, takes his drop, plays on, and says thanks to Ralph for saving his ball from drowning?
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#13 languid

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:06 AM

Sorry, but I can't get past this point as what you say is contradictory.  If it was Ralph's intention to stop the ball, then his action must have been premeditated.

Sorry, but I can't get past this point as what you say is contradictory.  If it was Ralph's intention to stop the ball, then his action must have been premeditated.

Colin, when Ralph stops the Ball in a n instinctive reaction, maybe outing his foot in the way. There would be intent even though a second or less of thought might be involved. He could have stood still or moved away.
It comes down to interpretation of “intent”.
I am trying to find that out. I can’t find a Ruling anywhere.
I would be pleased to discover an instinctive reaction excludes intent in the meaning intended by the RB’s. It does seem hard on Ralph to get 2 strokes penalty as Dave gets no advantage through it.

#14 languid

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:11 AM

Note 1: A player is deemed to have committed a serious breach of Rule 1-2 if the Committee considers that the action taken in breach of this Rule has allowed him or another player to gain a significant advantage or has placed another player, other than his partner, at a significant disadvantage


Ah! Yes. That’s It! Dave must be Disqualified for Serious Breach because his action in setting up this stopping his ball from going in the Hazard results in Ralph earning 2 strokes penalty.

Thanks for that.

#15 GhettoGolfer

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 08:26 AM

Or he could just have been saving the ball for his mate and Dave plays it as entering the hazard, takes his drop, plays on, and says thanks to Ralph for saving his ball from drowning?


Wtf is wrong with you. That's the most preposterous thing ever posted in the rules forum.
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