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Can The Line Of Play Extend Behind The Ball?


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#1 Monty85

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:34 AM

So this scenario got brought up recently that apparently was ruled on in the past and the player given permission to;

 

Rake a bunker behind his line of play when the ball was plugged in the face of the bunker. The player questioned it and specifically said “can I rake this area in case my ball rolls back in to it” and it was deemed at the time acceptable to do so.

 

Was this correct?


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#2 Monty85

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:44 PM

So thinking some more. The very fact that the player voiced his intentions that he was raking in case the ball rolled back there should mean it would be a breach of exception 2 to rule 13-4. Would that be right?

 

2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

 

So it was made clear by the player that raking was not for the "sole purpose" of caring for the course.

 

So considering this scenario, my understanding is that the player could have raked here had they not had said anything. However, considering they voiced their intentions it would have ultimately been a breach of Rule 13-4.


Edited by Monty85, 12 February 2018 - 12:45 PM.

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#3 rogolf

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 12:55 PM

So thinking some more. The very fact that the player voiced his intentions that he was raking in case the ball rolled back there should mean it would be a breach of exception 2 to rule 13-4. Would that be right?

 

2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.

 

So it was made clear by the player that raking was not for the "sole purpose" of caring for the course.

 

So considering this scenario, my understanding is that the player could have raked here had they not had said anything. However, considering they voiced their intentions it would have ultimately been a breach of Rule 13-4.

Breaching 13-2 "with respect to his next stroke" means the stroke that will be played next.  If the player did not improve anything with respect to the stroke that was yet to be played (not the one after the next stroke), it is not a breach - unless of course the player had decided to play his stroke from the face of the bunker backwards, towards where he was raking.



#4 Monty85

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:04 PM

Breaching 13-2 "with respect to his next stroke" means the stroke that will be played next.  If the player did not improve anything with respect to the stroke that was yet to be played (not the one after the next stroke), it is not a breach - unless of course the player had decided to play his stroke from the face of the bunker backwards, towards where he was raking.

 

So even though he specifically mentioned that he was raking a part of the bunker in case the ball ended up there which would improve a subsequent stroke, that is ok because it is not improving his "next stroke"?

 

And also because his intention is not for the ball to end up there - only that it "might" end up there.

 

Did I understand that right?


Edited by Monty85, 12 February 2018 - 01:10 PM.

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#5 rogolf

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:36 PM

So even though he specifically mentioned that he was raking a part of the bunker in case the ball ended up there which would improve a subsequent stroke, that is ok because it is not improving his "next stroke"?

 

And also because his intention is not for the ball to end up there - only that it "might" end up there.

 

Did I understand that right?

Yes. His actions were not improving anything with regards to his "next" stroke.  In previous Rules editions where it specified "subsequent play", it may have been a breach, but it is not in the current Rules.



#6 Monty85

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 01:50 PM

Yes. His actions were not improving anything with regards to his "next" stroke.  In previous Rules editions where it specified "subsequent play", it may have been a breach, but it is not in the current Rules.

 

Excellent. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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#7 Schmuck

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:05 PM

I think I just learnt something, thanks. :)

Edited by Schmuck, 12 February 2018 - 02:29 PM.

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#8 Rodent

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:38 PM

Raking the bunker could be testing the surface couldn't it?

#9 Bluethunda

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:53 PM

So I imagine if I am in a bunker on one side of the green I can rake the far bunker incSe my ball may end up in there, even though I don't intend it to be???
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#10 rogolf

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:51 AM

Exception 2 to Rule 13 reads,

"At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke.  If a ball played from a hazard is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction."



#11 rogolf

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:53 AM

So I imagine if I am in a bunker on one side of the green I can rake the far bunker incSe my ball may end up in there, even though I don't intend it to be???

You may be in breach of Rule 6-7 (Undue Delay).  However, this Rule is commonly not enforced on the PGA Tour! :D


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#12 Joe79

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:34 AM

Raking the bunker could be testing the surface couldn't it?

 

If that was to be the case the same could be said for digging in your feet when taking your stance could it not?


Edited by Chopper Man, 13 February 2018 - 09:35 AM.

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#13 rogolf

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:29 AM

Decision 13-4/0.5 is too long to post, but is worth a read, for those in doubt about testing....

 

http://www.usga.org/...on-13,d13-4-0.5


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#14 Bluethunda

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:46 PM

If that was to be the case the same could be said for digging in your feet when taking your stance could it not?


Yes, had a chap say he tries to feel the sand depth potentially under his ball when digging his feet in prior to his shot
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#15 VLAD

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:17 AM

I have heard several 'pros' advise this as a tip to see what the lie will be like.


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