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#31 Weetbix

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 04:09 PM

That case wasn't being investigated by the committee at the time.
There werw different circumstances with that one


So Itchy's point remains

They need to have any issues identified and sent to the committee before the player signs their card so they don't get a double whammy

With a feed review which could easily be running behind play the poor player could still cop two penalties
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#32 rogolf

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:36 AM

So Itchy's point remains

They need to have any issues identified and sent to the committee before the player signs their card so they don't get a double whammy

With a feed review which could easily be running behind play the poor player could still cop two penalties

Yes, that's true.  Knowing the Rules and playing by them has its benefits.  The sport relies on the integrity of the player(s).



#33 Weetbix

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:48 AM

Yes, that's true. Knowing the Rules and playing by them has its benefits. The sport relies on the integrity of the player(s).

Which they have a rich history of demonstrating

But some things are just never seen by them or their playing group

The rule change should have said that any infringements identified or advised to the player after they have signed their card and do not incur an incorrect scorecard penalty

Edited by Weetbix, 20 January 2018 - 06:49 AM.

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#34 rogolf

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 08:17 AM

Which they have a rich history of demonstrating

But some things are just never seen by them or their playing group

The rule change should have said that any infringements identified or advised to the player after they have signed their card and do not incur an incorrect scorecard penalty

The penalty went from DQ to two strokes in 2016, that's quite a significant change.  Imo, there has to be some incentive for the player to know the Rules; there shouldn't be a free pass for being ignorant of them.


Edited by rogolf, 20 January 2018 - 08:19 AM.

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#35 golfguy33

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:52 AM

Watched the ball obviously move on Matt Kuchar as he went to putt the other night on the tv, midway thru his first round. He sort of recoiled slightly and lifted his putter, then without any hesitation went back into his process and made his stroke. No one made any comment about the ball moving and I'd suspect he didn't even consider that he'd made the ball move, just kept going. It seems that the pro's now have a new way to get out of jail when a problem occurs, let someone else prove or disprove it via the replay ?

Jon...



#36 languid

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 01:08 PM

Watched the ball obviously move on Matt Kuchar as he went to putt the other night on the tv, midway thru his first round. He sort of recoiled slightly and lifted his putter, then without any hesitation went back into his process and made his stroke. No one made any comment about the ball moving and I'd suspect he didn't even consider that he'd made the ball move, just kept going. It seems that the pro's now have a new way to get out of jail when a problem occurs, let someone else prove or disprove it via the replay ?
Jon...

I think your comment is cynical.
You allege his Ball moved. Maybe it oscillated or returned to the spot.
“Went to putt” is not specifically addressing the Ball or otherwise causing the Ball to move.
I think the Tour Professionals are worthy of trust until proven otherwise. I have seen many telecasts and many examples of “calling the penalty “ on themselves.
Penalties applied after the event are more commonly due to not knowing a Rule properly, including a Local Rule.
Cheating can and has got Professionals suspended for a long time. It happens rarely. It has happened in Australia.

#37 AAA

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 07:25 PM

Watched the ball obviously move on Matt Kuchar as he went to putt the other night on the tv, midway thru his first round. He sort of recoiled slightly and lifted his putter, then without any hesitation went back into his process and made his stroke. No one made any comment about the ball moving and I'd suspect he didn't even consider that he'd made the ball move, just kept going. It seems that the pro's now have a new way to get out of jail when a problem occurs, let someone else prove or disprove it via the replay ?

Jon...

Why would he say or do anything if he determined he didn't cause the movement?

 

If it is determined that a player’s ball on the putting green was moved as a result of wind, water or some other natural cause such as the effects of gravity, the ball must be played as it lies from its new location. A ball-marker moved in such circumstances is replaced."



#38 golfguy33

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:13 PM

I think your comment is cynical.
You allege his Ball moved. Maybe it oscillated or returned to the spot.
“Went to putt” is not specifically addressing the Ball or otherwise causing the Ball to move.
I think the Tour Professionals are worthy of trust until proven otherwise. I have seen many telecasts and many examples of “calling the penalty “ on themselves.
Penalties applied after the event are more commonly due to not knowing a Rule properly, including a Local Rule.
Cheating can and has got Professionals suspended for a long time. It happens rarely. It has happened in Australia.

His ball moved backwards and he had to pull his putter away because it was grounded behind the ball and ready to go ! 

I would've expected him to let one of his playing partners know what had happened before continuing.

Call me cynical but don't try to tell me what I saw and please don't try to put words into my mouth, when you obviously didn't see the situation during the tv coverage !   

 

Why would he say or do anything if he determined he didn't cause the movement?

 

If it is determined that a player’s ball on the putting green was moved as a result of wind, water or some other natural cause such as the effects of gravity, the ball must be played as it lies from its new location. A ball-marker moved in such circumstances is replaced."

I'm not inferring that he made the ball move, all I saw was that it looked unusual and he continued without mentioning it to someone else. I've seen this situation happen several times in the past year whilst playing and on every occasion the player had made sure that his playing partners and marker were aware of what transpired before proceeding. All of the elements have been in play to move the ball on these occasions, wind, water and gravity.

Jon...  



#39 AAA

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:15 PM

He had no obligation to say or do anything. He was conforming with the Rules.



#40 BumpunRun

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:41 AM

So, he didn't cheat?
"But sometimes there are more important things in life than being pedantic about the rules of golf, or spelling and grammar on golf forums"

#41 AAA

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:33 AM

If he didn't cause the ball to move, no.

Are you suggesting he did?



#42 Itchy4Scratch

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:50 AM

Would be nice to have some vision of the incident, it's all just pointless speculation otherwise. 



#43 Goldy

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:58 AM

So it fits right in.
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#44 languid

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:56 PM

Golf Guy

Without good pictures none of us can evaluate the incident.

You stated what you believe happened.

If the player grounded his club behind the ball and it took up a new position without any othe possible explanation he caused it to move...

The trap with TV vision is how perfectly the picture tells the story. Your description of the player recoiling and lifting the putter sounds more like he had almost grounded his Club when he saw ball movement.

I have had that happpen to me and seen it happen to others. I have also caused the ball to move replaced the Ball and taken the 1 penalty stroke and felt sorry for myself.

The big question in my mind is, did the putter touch the ball or was the putter actually grounded in the address position? I would give the benefit of the doubt to the player. The way Matt Kuchar has conducted himself over many years strongly points to a man of honour.

When I used the word cynical I was doing so because of the implication that professionals are looking for sneaky ways to avoid a penalty.

#45 rogolf

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 02:02 AM

Further, we don't know the date of the reported event, nor the local Rules which were in effect.

Here's the new local Rule available to Committees, and i'm pretty sure that all professional Tours have implemented it:

 

“Rules 18-2, 18-3 and 20-1 are modified as follows:

When a player’s ball lies on the putting green, there is no penalty if the ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved by the player, his partner, his opponent, or any of their caddies or equipment.

The moved ball or ball-marker must be replaced as provided in Rules 18-2, 18-3 and 20-1.

This Local Rule applies only when the player’s ball or ball-marker lies on the putting green and any movement is accidental.

Note: If it is determined that a player’s ball on the putting green was moved as a result of wind, water or some other natural cause such as the effects of gravity, the ball must be played as it lies from its new location. A ball-marker moved in such circumstances is replaced."

 

A similar situation occurred in the PGATour  CareerBuilders tournament on Sunday.  A ball on the putting green moved while the player was getting ready to putt it - no penalty to the player.


Edited by rogolf, 23 January 2018 - 02:05 AM.

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