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Ball Not Lost In Hazard


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#16 AAA

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 05:27 PM

You are not admitting anything, You are positing that it may not be in the water. Quite different.

 

It depends on where you are standing and just what you can see when you make the first determination.

The finishing area may be blind from the tee. 


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#17 OldBogey

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 05:43 PM

You are not admitting anything, You are positing that it may not be in the water. Quite different.
 
It depends on where you are standing and just what you can see when you make the first determination.
The finishing area may be blind from the tee.

I disagree. How can you state with certainty that your ball is definitely in the hazard, as per 'virtual certainty' criteria, if you've played a provisional on the basis that your ball MAY be lost outside the hazard?

I wouldn't accept a virtual certainty claim under those circumstances.

#18 Goldy

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 06:11 PM

We have a few shots at my course where you may hit where hazards are known to be, but can't be seen from the tee box as they are over a rise. It is permissible to play a provisional if you believe that the ball may have gone into the hazard. Or for that matter...even if you don't...or aren't sure.

 

But don't let the rules get in the way of you choosing to do what you want to do.

 

Garage doors can be hazards too.


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#19 Can Break 80

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:53 PM

I disagree. How can you state with certainty that your ball is definitely in the hazard, as per 'virtual certainty' criteria, if you've played a provisional on the basis that your ball MAY be lost outside the hazard?

I wouldn't accept a virtual certainty claim under those circumstances.

 

Just asking for a friend

 

 Player  A plays his ball from the tee.ground

the ball comes to rest on an island in the middle of a lake and can be clearly seen and identified.

 

Q is the ball considered to be lost ?


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#20 Snappy McSnapperton

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 09:36 PM


Just asking for a friend


Player A plays his ball from the tee.ground

the ball comes to rest on an island in the middle of a lake and can be clearly seen and identified.


Q is the ball considered to be lost ?


Behold, the humourous post from geoff.
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#21 AAA

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 11:04 PM

I disagree. How can you state with certainty that your ball is definitely in the hazard, as per 'virtual certainty' criteria, if you've played a provisional on the basis that your ball MAY be lost outside the hazard?

I wouldn't accept a virtual certainty claim under those circumstances.

You don't have to have 'virtual certainty' that the ball is in a WH in order to take a provisional.

The only requirement is that the ball may be lot outside a WH or may be OOB.

You make that judgement on the tee.

 

When you get to the area the ball is estimated to be, the terrain and vegetation may well determine that your judgement was wrong. You then have to know or be virtual certain that the ball is not in the WH in order to continue with the provisional.


Edited by AAA, 10 December 2017 - 11:08 PM.

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#22 rogolf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:55 AM

 

Just asking for a friend

 

 Player  A plays his ball from the tee.ground

the ball comes to rest on an island in the middle of a lake and can be clearly seen and identified.

 

Q is the ball considered to be lost ?

 

No.  Assuming the island is part of the water hazard, the player can proceed under Rule 26-1.



#23 Goldy

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:06 AM

Just asking for a friend
 
 Player  A plays his ball from the tee.ground
the ball comes to rest on an island in the middle of a lake and can be clearly seen and identified.
 
Q is the ball considered to be lost ?

Behold, the humourous post from geoff.

No.  Assuming the island is part of the water hazard, the player can proceed under Rule 26-1.


And as quickly as it appeared...gone.
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#24 Weetbix

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:22 AM

I understand rogolf that you are technically corrrct

But I'm with OB that if you make the call on the tee that the ball could be lost outside a hazard it is virtually impossible to then change your assessment when you get down where you think the balk was to say you are virtually certain it is in the hazard

If it could be anywhere else but the hazard off the tee then it's a chance to be anywhere else when you get closer to it IMO

Not saying the rules don't allow it - I just don't see it working in practice
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#25 rogolf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 05:46 AM

I understand rogolf that you are technically corrrct

But I'm with OB that if you make the call on the tee that the ball could be lost outside a hazard it is virtually impossible to then change your assessment when you get down where you think the balk was to say you are virtually certain it is in the hazard

If it could be anywhere else but the hazard off the tee then it's a chance to be anywhere else when you get closer to it IMO

Not saying the rules don't allow it - I just don't see it working in practice

I don't consider a player playing a provisional ball in my deliberations about known or virtually certain that a ball that is not found is in a water hazard.  I may ask him why he hit a provisional and if he responds that he thought his ball may be lost outside it, then the provisional was permitted.  Now to decide on known or virtually certain that the original ball is in the water hazard.  KVC is a very high standard, 98+% probability.


Edited by rogolf, 11 December 2017 - 05:47 AM.


#26 Weetbix

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:49 AM

I don't consider a player playing a provisional ball in my deliberations about known or virtually certain that a ball that is not found is in a water hazard. I may ask him why he hit a provisional and if he responds that he thought his ball may be lost outside it, then the provisional was permitted. Now to decide on known or virtually certain that the original ball is in the water hazard. KVC is a very high standard, 98+% probability.


And if the said player got down there after hitting provisional and said - nah I'm virtually certain it went in the hazard - unless there turns out be to a massive hidden hazard that no one was aware of of course - would you accept that they met the definition of virtually certain?

Personally I wouldn't simply because on the tee they weren't virtually certain and nothing has changed since then
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#27 rogolf

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 06:59 AM

And if the said player got down there after hitting provisional and said - nah I'm virtually certain it went in the hazard - unless there turns out be to a massive hidden hazard that no one was aware of of course - would you accept that they met the definition of virtually certain?

Personally I wouldn't simply because on the tee they weren't virtually certain and nothing has changed since then

No, I would examine the area(s) involved (long grass, bushes, trees etch) and determine if the original ball could be anywhere else, and my estimated probability of that.

Sometimes you might be virtually certain that the ball is in or not in a water hazard from the teeing ground, but most times you need to visit the area before making that determination.

Again, I don't consider playing a provisional or not as part of that deliberation.  The Rules encourage players to play a provisional if they think their ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.


Edited by rogolf, 11 December 2017 - 07:00 AM.

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#28 AAA

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 07:34 AM

I understand rogolf that you are technically corrrct

But I'm with OB that if you make the call on the tee that the ball could be lost outside a hazard it is virtually impossible to then change your assessment when you get down where you think the balk was to say you are virtually certain it is in the hazard

If it could be anywhere else but the hazard off the tee then it's a chance to be anywhere else when you get closer to it IMO

Not saying the rules don't allow it - I just don't see it working in practice

Take a practical example.

 

From the tee you have to drive over a rise, behind which, is a ditch at or about your driving distance. You don't know the nature of the ground surrounding the ditch but last time you played there it was long grass beyond and in front of the WH.

You hit the ball straight down the fairway but slightly miscue. You reckon your ball could well be in the long grass short of the WH so declare a provisional as per rule 27-2.

 

When you get over the rise you see that all the long grass has been mown down to fairway length.

You and your group approach the WH and look all around. There is no sign of the ball on the fairway before or beyond the WH and it is so wide, there is nowhere it can be hiding in the light rough to the distant sides.

You can now claim to have KVC that it is in the WH.


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#29 iRON MiCK

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:25 AM


Just asking for a friend


Player A plays his ball from the tee.ground

the ball comes to rest on an island in the middle of a lake and can be clearly seen and identified.


Q is the ball considered to be lost ?


Your friend will be cursed until he retrieves the ball and buries it on the island. This is not a rule of Golf. It is a known known.
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#30 Deege

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 12:37 PM

I had a situation several weeks ago where I was hitting from the tee to a par three which has a water hazard (creek) running along the right hand side.  My tee shot hit a tree branch at a good height but inside the water hazard and then ricochet'ed.  From the tee I couldn't see and didn't know whether the ball had ended inside the water hazard or had deflected outside the hazard.

 

I wanted to play a provisional as I couldn't be certain that the ball was in the water hazard.

 

One of the people I was playing with insisted that she had attended a recent rules seminar put on by one of our referees which stated that in such circumstances you are not permitted to play a provisional.  So we left the tee and the ball couldn't be found.  She insisted that the correct procedure was to take a drop on the basis that the ball was in the hazard.  I suspected that the correct procedure was to play it as a lost ball, but conceded the point.

 

It seems that my gut feeling was correct, and that I should have proceeded as a lost ball because I was not certain that the ball ended in the hazard.


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