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Laying The Club Off


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#1 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:21 AM

There has been some discussion on another thread about laying the club off at transition. There has been several attempts to explain what it is and why it should be done. I must admit that I fail to be convinced that it is of any advantage to the execution of a non compensated swing.

 

To try and achieve some clarity about this topic, I will ask some questions, in a step by step approach, to try and nail exactly what laying off is. Here we go...

 

 

1. Does laying off involve changing the swing plane?

 

2. If so, does it also involve changing the plane line (target line)?

 

Simple questions I would think, can anyone provide an answer for me....please?



#2 Can Break 80

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 04:42 PM

There has been some discussion on another thread about laying the club off at transition. There has been several attempts to explain what it is and why it should be done. I must admit that I fail to be convinced that it is of any advantage to the execution of a non compensated swing.
 
To try and achieve some clarity about this topic, I will ask some questions, in a step by step approach, to try and nail exactly what laying off is. Here we go...
 
 
1. Does laying off involve changing the swing plane?
 
2. If so, does it also involve changing the plane line (target line)?
 
Simple questions I would think, can anyone provide an answer for me....please?


In answering this have to ask
1 what at is ball flight you currently have if you think you lay club off.
2. What do you want the ball flight to be. In otherwords if it is perfectly on plane and in right position what will ball do.
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#3 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:50 PM

In answering this have to ask
1 what at is ball flight you currently have if you think you lay club off.
2. What do you want the ball flight to be. In otherwords if it is perfectly on plane and in right position what will ball do.


CB 80,
Thanks for your reply, the answers to your questions are;

1. I don't lay the club off, I don't know what laying the club off actually is. Hence my question.

2. I'm just trying to understand why one would want to lay the club off.


I would like to hear from anyone that knows enough about the subject, so as to explain it to me, using common geometric and scientific terms.

Edited by Jack_Golfer, 09 September 2017 - 05:53 PM.


#4 Shanks4ever

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 10:41 AM

Laying the club off at the top simply means your club points left of the target promoting a fade for good players and a slice for rubbish players.

 

Sergio Garcia is a good example of a laid off club.

 

Why lay it off, most pros prefer a fade over a draw.

 

If you can't get the club to point down the line for rubbish players it is far better to cross the line promoting a draw than lay it off. 


Edited by Shanks4ever, 10 September 2017 - 10:42 AM.


#5 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:42 AM

Laying the club off at the top simply means your club points left of the target promoting a fade for good players and a slice for rubbish players.

 

Sergio Garcia is a good example of a laid off club.

 

Why lay it off, most pros prefer a fade over a draw.

 

If you can't get the club to point down the line for rubbish players it is far better to cross the line promoting a draw than lay it off. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts Shanks. Do you have any references that describe that action?



#6 golfguy33

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:43 PM

Google Garcia and you will see the club being laid off by the best modern exponent of that swing.

Jon...


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#7 Shanks4ever

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 03:04 PM

https://www.golfdige...alysis-what-you



#8 BROWNMAN

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 04:08 PM

http://forums.iseekg...-trigger-delay/    been done over before

 


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#9 Zenstb

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:24 PM

Hi Jack,

My apologies, haven't been ignoring you, had a bit of treatment of late and feeling like sh#t. Then hospital tomorrow be feeling worse. 

Why lay it off?

Research conducted by several biomechanists testing tour players club dynamics and biomechanics over the last 5 years, they found that 95% of tour players lay it off, a hand full don't. Phil comes to mind. So why do they lay if off? Physics, they are working with the physics of the golf club. Hackers don't it's why they struggle so much. 

 

Laying off balances out the three forces of the golf club, Alpha,Beta and Gamma. So that the golfer can position their hands so that at the moment of truth or impact. The Net Force (the Handle) and the COM of the club can align up to each other at impact. ( flat left wrist , club shaft inline).

 

One important reason to lay the club off is to balance out Beta or downward acceleration which I explain in the video what occurs when beta occurs to early in the downswing.   At impact beta is the acceleration downward at impact perpendicular to the target. (think uncock down of left wrist or toe bowing downward of the shaft). This is extremely important that plays a significant roll to producing centripetal force. Club pulls down on the left hand, you pull the opposite direction with the left hand which towards you and up or cut it left and up.  Yes you do push into the ground with the left foot however this is automatic because you naturally have to push into the ground to be able to pull the handle with the left hand towards you. ( all been researched and proven). There is more to this, you have the Alpha force pulling on your left hand too , which also you have to pull the handle towards you too. This also contributes to centripetal force.  By pulling the handle towards us,  forces the hands to slow down and  causes the club head to accelerate towards the target line. The deceleration of the hands, then allows the COM of the club head to catch up. The net force or handle and the shaft or the COM of the Club become inline. Eg Flat left wrist and shaft inline.  Similar physics principals to the biomechanics of a hammer throw.How many hackers produce Centripetal force? just about none. Which I explain why in the video  in the other thread. Way too much Beta or downward acceleration in the beginning of downswing.

 

In simple terms lay the club off or slightly flat plane of the club. Then when you get to the right hip pull the handle left. Use your left shoulder, use left shoulder and left hand, just use the left hand , no rules to it either.

Lay the club off in the backswing if you like, no rules as long as it's layed off at transition is the key.  However don't lay it off too much as I have explained in the previous video why not to lay if off to much. You can if you like, no rules just adds variables and be dam good with gamma or hand rotation  to square the face up in time. The Toe of the club at top of back swing and transition should point at the target. Not everyone does , that's fine no rules.  Master this you can play any shot you like, draws, fades choose your poison. 

 

This is all very difficult to explain in writing in simple format so we all understand. When I'm well I'll do a video it will all make perfect sense. Hackers force physics, they try to force planes, they try to force impact alignments. They force the positions, They  are fighting physics. 

Tours players work with the physics, plane, impact etc etc naturally happens for them. They don't force the positions.  


Edited by Zenstb, 10 September 2017 - 05:30 PM.

Coordination is the key to movement

#10 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:41 PM

Hi Jack,

My apologies, haven't been ignoring you, had a bit of treatment of late and feeling like sh#t. Then hospital tomorrow be feeling worse. 

Why lay it off?

Research conducted by several biomechanists testing tour players club dynamics and biomechanics over the last 5 years, they found that 95% of tour players lay it off, a hand full don't. Phil comes to mind. So why do they lay if off? Physics, they are working with the physics of the golf club. Hackers don't it's why they struggle so much. 

 

Laying off balances out the three forces of the golf club, Alpha,Beta and Gamma. So that the golfer can position their hands so that at the moment of truth or impact. The Net Force (the Handle) and the COM of the club can align up to each other at impact. ( flat left wrist , club shaft inline).

 

One important reason to lay the club off is to balance out Beta or downward acceleration which I explain in the video what occurs when beta occurs to early in the downswing.   At impact beta is the acceleration downward at impact perpendicular to the target. (think uncock down of left wrist or toe bowing downward of the shaft). This is extremely important that plays a significant roll to producing centripetal force. Club pulls down on the left hand, you pull the opposite direction with the left hand which towards you and up or cut it left and up.  Yes you do push into the ground with the left foot however this is automatic because you naturally have to push into the ground to be able to pull the handle with the left hand towards you. ( all been researched and proven). There is more to this you have the Alpha pull on your left hand too which also you have to pull the handle towards you which also contributes to centripetal force.  By pulling the handle towards us forces the hands to slow down and  cause the club head to accelerate towards the target line. The deceleration of the hands then allows the COM of the club head to catch up. The net force or handle and the shaft or the COM of the Club become inline. Eg Flat left wrist and shaft inline.  Similar physics principals to the biomechanics of a hammer throw.How many hackers produce Centripetal force just about none. Which I explain why in the video way too much Beta or downward acceleration in the beginning of downswing.

 

In simple terms lay the club off or slightly flat plane of the club,  then when you get to the right hip pull the handle left. Use your left shoulder, use left shoulder and left hand, just use the left hand , no rules to it either. Lay the club off in the backswing if you like, no rules as long as it's layed off at transition is the key.  However don't lay it off too much as I have explained in the previous video why not to. the Toe of the club at top of back swing and transition should point at the target. Not everyone does that's fine no rules.  Master this you can play any shot you like, draws, fades choose your poison. 

 

This is all very difficult to explain in writing in simple format so we all understand. When I'm well I'll do a video it will all make perfect sense. Hackers force physics, they try to force planes, they try to force impact alignments. They force the positions, They  are fighting physics. 

Tours players work with the physics, plane, impact etc etc naturally happens for them. They don't force the positions.  

 

Hi Zen,

That is excellent. That's the answer that I was looking for. I get your Alpha, Beta and Gamma as being the breakup of 3 dimensional vectors involved in the golf swing. The resultant net force is the vector sum of Alpha, Beta and Gamma. So my take on what you are saying is that by flattening the swing a little, one can exert a greater centripetal force on the club, with a net force optimised to maintain the Line Of Compression. Is that correct?

 

I would think that an incorrect Beta would tend to happen due to the incorrect sequence in releasing the accumulators. i.e releasing Accumulator#1 before Accumulator #4 or just too much Accum#1. Does that make sense?

 

I will just add that once centripetal force comes into play, the swing should be allowed to follow its natural path as it complies with the Law Of The Flail. Any attempt to enhance or modify the swing once it is in that mode is counter productive and reduces the quality of the swing.


Edited by Jack_Golfer, 10 September 2017 - 05:53 PM.


#11 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:47 PM

http://forums.iseekg...-trigger-delay/    been done over before

 

Thanks Brownman. There are a lot of posts on that thread, any particular posts that you are referring too?



#12 BROWNMAN

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:53 AM

Thanks Brownman. There are a lot of posts on that thread, any particular posts that you are referring too?

none really,most of the info is there to be read,there isnt much more to be added.With mayo and zens vids all is explained,I followed mayo,s explanation and understood it,zen topped it off......the main reason for float loading imo is ball flight,could be wrong,been wrong before lol...,I have been tinkering with a japanese golf schools teaching methods for a while.."Goldone golf"school,they actually employ a bit of float loading,scott,s not to keen on their "club drop". It is interesting to say the least,their method really makes one feel like they are swinging with a greater feel of centrepital force going on.Brings on the feel also of pivot action and swinging club left in follow through to finish...im not advocating any swing at all,its just me following different schools of thought and playing around with them,its what I enjoy doing at my age,in a sentence,its got me back to enjoying my golf again....cheers.


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#13 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:57 AM

Hi Zen,

That is excellent. That's the answer that I was looking for. I get your Alpha, Beta and Gamma as being the breakup of 3 dimensional vectors involved in the golf swing. The resultant net force is the vector sum of Alpha, Beta and Gamma. So my take on what you are saying is that by flattening the swing a little, one can exert a greater centripetal force on the club, with a net force optimised to maintain the Line Of Compression. Is that correct?

 

I would think that an incorrect Beta would tend to happen due to the incorrect sequence in releasing the accumulators. i.e releasing Accumulator#1 before Accumulator #4 or just too much Accum#1. Does that make sense?

 

I will just add that once centripetal force comes into play, the swing should be allowed to follow its natural path as it complies with the Law Of The Flail. Any attempt to enhance or modify the swing once it is in that mode is counter productive and reduces the quality of the swing.

 

Hi Zen,

Firstly, I hope all goes well for you with your treatment. No need to apologise, when you're not feeling well, its hard to keep the motivation going. I know the feeling:-(

 

Also, I just want to follow up on my previous post that I wrote in a bit of a hurry. I have had some further thoughts about your post and the video that you posted on Devon's thread.

 

The case that you raise with golfers applying to much beta at the beginning of the swing is an interesting point. I am of the opinion that the grip can be a major contributor to the incorrect application of beta. If the right hand grip is positioned below the fulcrum point for the secondary lever, then there is every likelihood of too much beta being achieved. The way I found to correct this was to ensure that Pressure point#1 is correctly positioned, such that the right hand grip is on or as near to the fulcrum point as possible. That will ensure that accumulator #1 is applied to the primary lever and not the secondary lever. IMO, a major cause of club throwaway and shanking.

 

The gamma mode that you describe is the third accumulator in TGM. It follows the law of the flail as the COM seeks to align itself with the primary lever. A fatal flaw IMO, is to try and force this action by rolling the left wrist. The only action required is the left pull of the club that you describe. The law of the flail ensures the correct alignment and this should not be hindered by a deliberate manipulation of the hands or wrist.

 

One final question. If it is desirable to have a flatter swing plane, why not swing on that plane from the start? Laying the club off during transition is a tricky action and seems to add unnecessary complexity to the swing.

 

Just throwing up some thoughts on a very interesting subject. Hope it makes some sense:-)

 

Cheers



#14 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:00 AM

none really,most of the info is there to be read,there isnt much more to be added.With mayo and zens vids all is explained,I followed mayo,s explanation and understood it,zen topped it off......the main reason for float loading imo is ball flight,could be wrong,been wrong before lol...,I have been tinkering with a japanese golf schools teaching methods for a while.."Goldone golf"school,they actually employ a bit of float loading,scott,s not to keen on their "club drop". It is interesting to say the least,their method really makes one feel like they are swinging with a greater feel of centrepital force going on.Brings on the feel also of pivot action and swinging club left in follow through to finish...im not advocating any swing at all,its just me following different schools of thought and playing around with them,its what I enjoy doing at my age,in a sentence,its got me back to enjoying my golf again....cheers.

 

Brownman,

Well, I guess we're going to disagree on the value of the Mayo video. On the other hand, Scott has provided an excellent explanation in his video.

 

Thanks for the lead on Golden Golf, I will check it out.

 

Cheers






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