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Jim Hardy, Books On Release And Swing Plane


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#91 Can Break 80

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 06:17 AM

We had a good discussion about laying the club down a few months ago.

After looking at Hardy, imo the whole question of laying down gets a lot clearer.

If you were playing a 2 plane LOP, I don't think you want to lay the club down.

If you were playing RIT, but made a 1 plane backswing, the club at the top would be parallel to the plane for the RIT throw, so would need to be dropped as you throw. Semantically, you might call this a laydown move, or choose to call it a drop. Hardy calls this a drop.

If you were playing RIT but took a 2 plane backswing, you absolutely need to lay the club down on a flatter plane as well as drop down. Hardy calls this a hybrid, a two plane RIT hybrid.

A perfect example, imo, of how you can't say "laying the club down is a good idea" until you have thought about how you want to release the club.

This is a feature of a lot of golf instruction, they don't properly put the idea they are talking about in the context of the swing type they mean.

As you will see if you look at Hardy's analysis of pro swings, once you know how they intend to release the club, what they do on the backswing and transition is understandable as moves necessary to get into the right place for the release they use.

I just hope someone on isg ponies up the 80 bucks soon, then this thread won't have to be just my take on Hardy.

 

do you really think the pros stand on the tee or in the fairway and part of their pre shot routine is to think about  RIT or LOP and all the other stuff to help release the club head just before they hit the shot....


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#92 iRON MiCK

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:57 AM

I can't even get through the whole of your posts let alone ponie up $80 on another golf book

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#93 Toph

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 08:36 AM

do you really think the pros stand on the tee or in the fairway and part of their pre shot routine is to think about RIT or LOP and all the other stuff to help release the club head just before they hit the shot....

No. That’s not what he’s saying. He’s saying the pros have grooved, consciously or unconsciously, a certain swing pattern, they don’t think what they are going to do of course, but video shows they are doing it. Semantics.
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#94 GhettoGolfer

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:41 AM

I can't even get through the whole of your posts let alone ponie up $80 on another golf book


Get some ritalin into you. Should help you with your 8 sec focus window.
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#95 iRON MiCK

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:54 AM

5 sec... what?

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#96 Devongolfer

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:59 PM

Just to recap. The Release is a book, the cheapest option is a Kindle version online, just over £7 GB. Comparable to the price of a couple of pro v1s.

If you like that and get into it, imo it is worth getting the videos that explain the book, they cost the 80 bucks.

Nothing to do with swing thoughts, thanks, Toph, for clearing that up.

If you are working on your swing, particulalry if you have been working and struggling for a while, and are looking for some fresh ideas that might help, Hardy is my recommendation.
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#97 Devongolfer

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 05:38 PM

Short game in the context of Hardy.

Perhaps I should start by warning Iron Mick that this might be a long post, perhaps better to look away now, Mick.

Hardy's book on the release and the videos say nothing about short game. But he does show Zach Johnson's full swing with a commentary that he does not really release the club and I have mentioned that I would experiment with that for short game alongside trying the other options.

My conclusion is that a RIT type throwing action is a terrible basis for a short game. A throw and a flip are just too similar.

So, staying within the Hardy framework, that leaves two options, a LOP release for short game or No Release, or holding off, like Zach. I have been using LOP for those high shots over bunkers for a while because the release is automatic so this method is great for not quitting on the shot. But for all the other ordinary pitches and chips, this LOP style seemed way too exotic.

The primary benefit of a release is the added clubhead speed, which you don't really need for short game. No Release it is, just imo of course.

In the Hardy analysis of Zach Johnson, there are two key components. The first is a super strong left hand grip. The second is that he keeps the left arm as the plane arm, like a LOP, yet swings on a flatter plane, which makes him a hybrid.

In my experiments with short game, both of these ideas seem golden.

The super strong left hand grip does a couple of useful things. It resists any flipping action from the right hand, and it makes the whole swing far less right hand / arm dominant.

Keeping the left arm as the plane arm works well too, imo. It works for any length of swing from a chip putt up to a 3/4 swing. It is simple and having an active role for the left arm creates a drag or pulling action as opposed to a pushing action.

For a good short game, you need precision in where the club hits the ground, which is easier to control with the left arm being the guide for the swing.

If Hardy ever publishes something on short game, I wonder if he will say something similar, or not?
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#98 Devongolfer

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 05:17 PM

I am not doing a journal, suffice to say I am thrilled with the progress I have made with ball striking since adopting Hardy.

But I thought it would be worth a couple of posts on some of the details I have been learning along the way.

This post is about grip in the context of Hardy's RIT release.

The RIT release is a sideways flex, or throw, of the club with the right hand. No cocking and uncocking, no rolling of the right forearm. There is a second key, with is throwing so the shaft lines up with the right forearm.

The grip that makes most sense to me for RIT is as follows

First, both hands should be parallel, as in clapping hands, so as the right wrist throws the left flexes. This translates into a very neutral left hand and right hand grip.

Secondly, the left grip needs to be very much a palm grip, with the shaft under the thumb pad of the left hand, not across the base of the fingers. And the right hand needs to shift just a fraction down the shaft, not a baseball grip, but just a fraction in that direction. These adjustments get the right forearm closer to the shaft plane.

Historically, in my heave and hold off days, I used a strong left hand grip.

The same when I was TGM hitting.

In heave and hold off, anything resembling a RIT throw gives the worst snap hook, left going left. In TGM hitting, you are supposed to "hit" with a bent right wrist. In the Zach Johnson, no release, action I adopted for short game, I use a super stong left grip.

What I have learnt from this is the idea that you can set up in two ways, either using the left hand to resist the tendency to throw with the right hand, or to go with that tendency with minimum resistance to get maximum speed.

As I get into the details like this, I am appreciating more fully how different RIT is to what TGM hitting says and what I used to do for years.

I will give it a couple of days for the excitement about this post to die down :-) then offer some observations about OTT and RIT, because if you are using RIT, OTT is death and I have OTT habits.
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#99 hack2489

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 06:50 PM

I am not doing a journal, suffice to say I am thrilled with the progress I have made with ball striking since adopting Hardy.

But I thought it would be worth a couple of posts on some of the details I have been learning along the way.

This post is about grip in the context of Hardy's RIT release.

The RIT release is a sideways flex, or throw, of the club with the right hand. No cocking and uncocking, no rolling of the right forearm. There is a second key, with is throwing so the shaft lines up with the right forearm.

The grip that makes most sense to me for RIT is as follows

First, both hands should be parallel, as in clapping hands, so as the right wrist throws the left flexes. This translates into a very neutral left hand and right hand grip.

Secondly, the left grip needs to be very much a palm grip, with the shaft under the thumb pad of the left hand, not across the base of the fingers. And the right hand needs to shift just a fraction down the shaft, not a baseball grip, but just a fraction in that direction. These adjustments get the right forearm closer to the shaft plane.

Historically, in my heave and hold off days, I used a strong left hand grip.

The same when I was TGM hitting.

In heave and hold off, anything resembling a RIT throw gives the worst snap hook, left going left. In TGM hitting, you are supposed to "hit" with a bent right wrist. In the Zach Johnson, no release, action I adopted for short game, I use a super stong left grip.

What I have learnt from this is the idea that you can set up in two ways, either using the left hand to resist the tendency to throw with the right hand, or to go with that tendency with minimum resistance to get maximum speed.

As I get into the details like this, I am appreciating more fully how different RIT is to what TGM hitting says and what I used to do for years.

I will give it a couple of days for the excitement about this post to die down :-) then offer some observations about OTT and RIT, because if you are using RIT, OTT is death and I have OTT habits.

 

Mate, it's 100% great and awesome you've found something that is working for you.

 

I have no problem with your posts and you sharing your knowledge.

 

I've read Hardy, got the Kindle edition via Amazon. Took a bit to understand. But, for me, having a coach with a trained eye watch me and fault find is much better than me trying to self diagnose. In fact, for me, I honestly believe my self diagnosis is the cause of my issues. What I think I am doing, and think I am feeling, even with video footage, isn't often the problem - a cause and effect or symptom and cause link.

 

Few of us have our 'journey' / 'journal' thread going, so maybe that's what you need to log here too. I'm sure plenty of viewers will get something from what you share.


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#100 iRON MiCK

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 10:09 PM

I read and appreciate what you shared re your grip. If it works for you and you can improve and continue to play golf for many more years then that would be enough for anyone.

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#101 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 02:51 AM

Appreciate the comments, Hack and Mick, thanks.

Hack, agree 100% about the perils of self diagnosis. Very very easy to get the diagnosis wrong and waste months going off on a wrong path.

I have a good relationship with a local pro, and I go to him every few months. I think he gets a kick out of having someone who is willing to talk technicalities with him. He knows I am on a mission to understand the golf swing, and am using Hardy, and he is great about it, so much so he buys the books.

Mostly I start just asking him to video me. Usually, this gives me a huge disappointment because I am not doing what I wanted to do, far too much of my old swing still in the new. Then I explain and we discuss what I was trying to do, and I get his input.

In this relationship I own what I am doing, and he is happy to support me as I go forward. I think he is genuinely interested to see how all of this works out, because he gets all sorts of people coming for lessons and is always looking for new ways to help them. Our lessons always go way over the time I pay for. Great guy.

He is a super golfer and has played a couple of European tour events. His ball striking is amazing, but he is a club pro primarily because he can't putt any better than I can.

From a swing mechanics point of view, we are opposites. He is tall and athletic, naturally gifted. And he is left handed but plays right handed, so his natural approach to the swing is the Left Arm Outward Pull, or LOP, in Hardy's terminology. He is using his naturally dominant left arm as the plane arm in a right handed LOP action. Phil Mickleson is a right hander playing left handed, I believe.

Anyway, Hack, a long way to say I agree about self diagnosis and the value of lessons, I just have gone a step further than many people in taking ownership for my learning process.
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#102 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 03:22 AM

I was going to wait a couple of days, but since we have a discussion going;

OTT and RIT.

I read once that some huge precentage of amateurs come OTT. I think I know why, because it actually does work. Up to a point. I have already told my story of heaving and holding off my way to a 6 handicap. In fact, even today, I still use heave and hold off when I am gouging my way out of rough or divots. Heave and hold off comes from the outside on a steep path, there is no release to worry about because you don't. In my experience, very effective at getting a decent contact off the ground, but gives a weak pull fade with a driver.

Why release? To gain clubhead speed. As I started to adopt RIT, I soon realised that I was 100% farked if I came OTT. To gain the benefits of the RIT throwing action you absolutely need to be on, or a fraction under, plane through the release zone.

Hardy does not use the term OTT. He talks about one or both ends of the club being off plane, below or above. You get different types of bad shots with each fault type and combination. As I have worked my way forward using Hardy's drills, faults and fixes, I have realised I have been fixing OTT.

I need to pause here and finish this topic shortly.
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#103 Devongolfer

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 04:40 AM

OTT and RIT, the sequel.

In this context, OTT simply means that you want to be on or slightly under plane, but for some faulty move or moves, one or both ends of the club approach impact above plane. This means that instead of the nice fast in to in swing with a free flowing throw, you have some sort of compensation moves going on that cost speed and you usually end up searching for your ball.

Before the Hardy videos, I thought OTT was primarily a right shoulder problem. Essentially, throwing the right shoulder out and forward. In fact, in my old Lynn Blake / TGM videos, he says "if you can't get the right shoulder moving down plane, nothing else matters much".

What I have learned from Hardy is how you can get above plane due to the right hip moving forward, losing your posture and, critically, due to the right arm. You also come OTT if you throw from the top, which goes back to my posts about transition moves and laying the club down.

The Hardy videos make it clear that you need to keep the right hip from moving forward, while the left hip moves back. He talks about a "Sergio drill" keeping the right forearm by your side as you throw.

My personal favourite is his Sam Snead lawnmower feel. Apparently, Snead was a wonderful RIT player and when asked for a tip, he talked about the action of pull starting a petrol mower. Snead said he liked to feel he starts the mower with his right arm on the way back, and with his left arm on the way through.

To cut to the chase, my current pattern goes like this

1: when I set up, I like to feel the angle between my torso and right thigh and I want to maintain that
2: lawnmower back, do not lift or cick or rotate the right forearm, keep things compact
3: start the throw with the right hand, keeping the right upper arm back per Sergio, and stay turned with the shoulders until the throw has started
4: throw to full extension of the right arm as plane arm, lawnmower the left arm back as I get through impact
5: the body responds naturally to the arm movements, but I feel I hold that torso / right thigh angle.

I am not trying to save you the need to get the book and video, so I do not expect you to be able to follow this post as a pattern.

But for me, as a lifelong OTT hacker, the difference is night and day. The hip is back, the shoulder stays back, I am not throwing from the top, I am not standing up out of my posture or letting the right hip move forward. I feel like I am on plane through impact and the difference in strike is, as I said, night and day.

Now, the last thing I want to say is that this is nothing to do with being some ultra advanced, tour pro, best in class swing. This is just a solid, basic, on plane swing with a throw / release that adds some clubhead speed.

It works way, way, better than coming OTT for this particular hacker. The key, for me, is I know how it works, thanks to Hardy. Which goes back to the discussion about self diagnosis. Self diagnosis is still error prone, but the more you understand the better you get, in my experience, of working out why, when the swing breaks down.

Edited by Devongolfer, 10 June 2018 - 04:43 AM.

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#104 hack2489

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 08:14 AM

Appreciate the comments, Hack and Mick, thanks.

Hack, agree 100% about the perils of self diagnosis. Very very easy to get the diagnosis wrong and waste months going off on a wrong path.

I have a good relationship with a local pro, and I go to him every few months. I think he gets a kick out of having someone who is willing to talk technicalities with him. He knows I am on a mission to understand the golf swing, and am using Hardy, and he is great about it, so much so he buys the books.

Mostly I start just asking him to video me. Usually, this gives me a huge disappointment because I am not doing what I wanted to do, far too much of my old swing still in the new. Then I explain and we discuss what I was trying to do, and I get his input.

In this relationship I own what I am doing, and he is happy to support me as I go forward. I think he is genuinely interested to see how all of this works out, because he gets all sorts of people coming for lessons and is always looking for new ways to help them. Our lessons always go way over the time I pay for. Great guy.

He is a super golfer and has played a couple of European tour events. His ball striking is amazing, but he is a club pro primarily because he can't putt any better than I can.

From a swing mechanics point of view, we are opposites. He is tall and athletic, naturally gifted. And he is left handed but plays right handed, so his natural approach to the swing is the Left Arm Outward Pull, or LOP, in Hardy's terminology. He is using his naturally dominant left arm as the plane arm in a right handed LOP action. Phil Mickleson is a right hander playing left handed, I believe.

Anyway, Hack, a long way to say I agree about self diagnosis and the value of lessons, I just have gone a step further than many people in taking ownership for my learning process.



That's really good information for anyone reading this thread. A journey journal type thread would be good to fully explain your journey, each improvement and the detail of the "how".

I get you want to share how hardy has really helped you. But, it is not in isolation, either.

Up until this post, I was of the impression you were doing most of the reading, self diagnosis, etc. yourself.

Keep us posted on your scoring too. Where you were, are, and improvements over time. That's where a journal journey thread would work to supplement the technical hardy swing technique discussion here.

#105 hack2489

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 08:35 AM

My $0.02 worth on OTT etc.

First, this bit:

"...Self diagnosis is still error prone, but the more you understand the better you get, in my experience, of working out why, when the swing breaks down... "

I agree. My coach teaches me with the 'why' we do something, "what" it will do and "how" it will affect the ball approach. I found I improve most when I know why. Plus, understanding ball flight laws to fault find during practice is key. My coach asks me during the lesson to self diagnose from the ball flight, and then has me look at the trackman data. I know now when I practice my analysis is correct.

What causes the error, well, that's another story!

OTT.

Yep, I think the stats are correct. It's an amateur error for sure. The causes of which are covered in any number of a hundred you tube videos by pros,

For me, the thought or motion to "hit" the ball is undoubtedly the underlying cause. With strong shoulders from a lifetime surfing, my brain fires them and so my right shoulder goes out too early.

When I read hardy, I found the LOP worked to stop that right shoulder, but, my hips were still not firing. I then went back to Dante, but still the hip slide didn't help.

So my coach had me start my downswing with my left hip going straight back, but, I over did it and would straighten my left leg too soon.

I've hard to work on keeping my posture, and get the timing sequence. It's still a work progress.

Edited by hack2489, 10 June 2018 - 08:36 AM.

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