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Jim Hardy, Books On Release And Swing Plane


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#16 Devongolfer

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 05:25 PM

Reading some people's experiences with Hardy and his teachers there seems to be an emphases on swinging hard left - particularly for the one plane RIT swing. To the point of talking about feeling like transition is aiming your hands at your right pocket. Is that a feel that applies in your add Devon?


Hi, Weetbix,
I'm not sure about your description. Probably best if I don't try to describe Hardy in my own words, I'll just add in my own misconceptions and feels. The Kindle version of the release book costs less than 3 pro v1 s, it really is not expensive for folks to get everything direct from Hardy rather than via me.

#17 Devongolfer

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 06:23 PM

Zen,

thanks for the Mayo video. The laying down idea is mentioned by quite a few teachers, I'm thinking of Leadbetter's A swing or Pete Croker's "rotate under, not over" or something like that. From my own experience, I agree. In my own way of thinking, if the club head ever gets above plane, you are stuffed. And there seem to be a lot of ways to do it, I have tried most of them and they all lead to miserable shots.

The equivalent in Hardy for his one plane / RIT is the advice to drop the club as you make the transition. He is assuming that you have executed the one plane backswing correctly, so have the shaft on the right plane, but have just lifted it up and parallel to the plane you want on the downswing. Mayo makes the reasonable assumption that the viewer of the video not only has the club too high, they also have it too steep, so you need to drop and shallow.

Either way, I agree. The backswing tends to get the hands above plane and the shaft too steep. You have to undo one or both in the transition, otherwise, as I know very well, you are stuffed.

#18 Zenstb

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 10:12 PM

Devon,
Great topic of discussion and totally agree with you.
I may have to do a video would maybe be the best way to explaining layed off.
An misconception I see is laying off is totally different to dropping the club down.I feel personally feel in general the industry misunderstand the physics and get the drop and laying off mixed up.
When laying off correctly you maintain extensor action or use frozen right arm or maintain width with pressure against the shaft pressure point 3. You work your arms around the spine maintaining extension action or width or pressure against the shafts. Then once you get to the right hip pull the handle left using either the left hand (presure point2 or use left shoulder P1 or accumulator 4) to pull the handle left which cause the club head to release inside to out and square down the line. This speed direction the club travelling. The path is inside, sqaure , inside. Important we dont confuse the two. Key is the speed direction. Very important for collision dynamics. The speed direction of the club head dictates ball flight.(Club face). The ball starts where face is pointing is because majority of speed is travelling the direction the face is pointing. This aligns with the com of the club and the physics.

If you drop the club down the club head or COM follows the direction the handle is being pulled. The club head tries to line up inline with the handle. What happens is you then get stuck or club gets underneath. You can't release the club. You hit pushes, hooks, fat shots. Lose club head speed.
Hope this makes sense. Maybe easier if I do a quick video and it will all make a ton of sense.
Coordination is the key to movement

#19 Zenstb

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 07:27 PM

Hi Devon,
Maybe this video is helpful with club physics and help you with your golf.

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Coordination is the key to movement

#20 Devongolfer

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 11:43 PM

Zen,
great video, many thanks for taking the time to put that together. I can see there is more to laying off than I had realised.

thanks again

#21 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 09:42 AM

Zen,
Thanks for doing the video, you have raised a very interesting discussion point. Its great to find a thread on ISG that has something of interest to golfers who want to understand their swing and how to improve it.

After saying all that, I am sorry to have to say that I am none the wiser of what laying off actually is. I got from your video that laying off involves pointing the shaft at the plane line but if you have loaded up correctly on the backswing, it already is. What am I missing here?

The other thing that I would mention is that there is this tendency in golf to talk about the physics of golf, without using the correct scientific terms. There is an essential force that is involved in the release of the golf club. Its called centripetal force(not to be confused with centrifugal force). Its what makes things go around, like the moon around the earth. Its the same force that makes the club go around the pivot. It gets me that this term is never used in golf but is the most important force of all.

When you release accumulator #3, it is centripetal force that does it. Its achieved by simply pulling up on the club which provides the inward force to make the club go around. If you understand that, you begin to understand how to release the third accumulator. One of the great pieces of advice I remember from Dart was to "stomp on a can through impact". That was his way of describing pulling inward on the club.

Zen, I am not knocking your video, I appreciate you doing it very much. If you have the patience, could you please try and explain it again. From my point of view, if I maintain a single straight plane line, why would I want to change that? Is laying of just adjusting the plane to a lower level? If so, why not swing at that level in the first place?

I think I am missing an essential point here, I will wait for your answer before I dig myself a bigger hole :-)
Cheers

Edited by Jack_Golfer, 05 September 2017 - 09:45 AM.


#22 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 01:21 AM

I have been using the 1 plane RIT Hardy stuff for a while now, and there were a couple of comments from earlier in this thread that I wanted to add to.

Zen talked about Dart talking about swinging in a circle rather than at the target, and Weetbix talked about swinging "hard left".

I reckon I can support both ideas from my interpretation of Hardy. In his book, there are two key, related, ideas.

The first is that the right forearm is on plane through impact, not the left forearm.
The left forearm is " vertical ".

The second, related, idea in Hardy is that the left arm gets "in the way" if it stays on plane, which basically destroys the RIT release and sends you into rapid last moment compensations.

What I feel is that the left arm heads into a vertical alignment, close to my left side. That is where the left arm is heading while the on plane right forearm is busy whacking the heck out of the ball.

This feels very different to what I used to do, and it seems to work nicely for me. But now I have the feel for it, I think I can recognise what Dart and Weetbix were describing, albeit in different terms to Hardy.

Anyway, Hardy was pretty new to me when Zen and Weetbix posted those comments, but they stuck with me and now I have the feel for the Hardy release, I thought I would mention them again.

Cheers.
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#23 BROWNMAN

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 02:08 AM

Hi Devon,
Maybe this video is helpful with club physics and help you with your golf.

great stuff scotty.......thanks for video


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#24 Devongolfer

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 02:37 AM

Hi, Brownman, good to hear from you, yes, Zen posted that video for me a while ago.

Looking at it again, now with a bit more feel for the Hardy stuff, the bit in the Zen video I am talking about is the second half when Zen talks about working the handle left.

Zen talks about alpha, beta, gamma, fine, that is his language. Hardy simply goes for the left arm being vertical rather than in plane, in the "working left" aspect though impact.

As for laying down the club, I am still open to it, but have not yet embraced it. I think I am naturally swinging on a flat plane. Or, it could be that laying down does not help me while I have the second half of the swing wrong. It might be that getting that right will then allow me to get more from the laying down.

So, I am not saying anything at this time for or against laying down, I will keep an open mind on that. My points today concern different ways of talking about working the club left through impact.

It is important to remember that Hardy is not "inventing" his methods, he does not claim that or anything like it. What he is trying to do is analyse and classify the two basic swing types that he sees the modern players use, and then come up with the clearest explanations he can for the amateur to follow.

If Zen and Hardy each understand the modern swings, then I reckon they should end up in the same place, albeit each using their own language.

I like Hardy compared to all the other published material I have bought up to this point, but, and I can't say this enough, Hardy's material, imo, is not "secret sauce" in terms of technique, it is simply "best in class explanation" of the two flavours of "secret sauce" on tour.

#25 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:46 PM

Just spent $110 on a set of Hardy books, I hope there is some gold in them there books :unsure:



#26 Devongolfer

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 08:48 PM

Jack,
great news, I look forward to discussing Hardy with you. I just have the plane book and the release book, so will wait to see what you think of the other two before investing!

I hope you find them as useful as I do.

#27 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 09:24 AM

OK, I finally got the Jim Hardy book on The Release and have had a quick read through it. On first reading, I must admit to having serious doubts about the robustness of the Hardy method as he seemed to defy many of the Essentials of Golf, as mandated in TGM. For example, there is no mention of the Flat Left Wrist. In fact, he seems to contradict that Essential in his RIT method which uses flexion of the right wrist in the throwing action. Surely that will result in a flat out club throwaway action. But it doesn't. I'm not sure how the mechanics of this works but from the brief trial of this method, it sure doesn't have any throwaway that I could detect.

 

The terms that Hardy uses are a rather confusing at first, the RIT (Right-Inward-Throw) and the LOP (Left-Outward-Pull) are not self explanatory. The Inward and Outward actions in those acronyms, refer to the opposite arm. That is, the Inward in RIT actually refers to the Left arm. Confused? So was I.

 

I have played one round where I was using the RIT for my mid and short irons and I must say that I was rather surprised at how accurate it was. It was relatively easy to use, although I wasn't employing much of the arm inward action that he prescribes. In TGM terms, that to me seems to be a form of Power Accumulator #3 action.

 

In fact, the whole RIT concept is really another form of PA#3. The difference being that in TGM, the action involves right forearm outward rotation, rather than the RIT right wrist flexion. The RIT action in fact mandates that the Right Forearm is static (no rotation) during the release phase of the swing.

 

Another contrast to TGM mechanics is the throwing action that Hardy says can begin at the very start of the down swing. I have found that the start of the down swing must still start with the shoulder rotation (PA#4), as in TGM. The Throw is simply an early release of Power Accumulator #1. The sequence of 4,1,2,3 still holds.

 

I must say that Hardy has written the first golf instruction book that I have read, to actually acknowledge the presence and function of centripetal forces. He has to be congratulated on having the courage to break new ground. Although he does acknowledge the presence of that force in the RIT, he omits it in his description of the LOP. In reality, centripetal force is present in every golf swing that uses a centric pivot action. If it wasn't there, the club would fly out into the bush.

 

Playing again this afternoon, I will have some more comments to make, after that.


Edited by Jack_Golfer, 27 December 2017 - 09:28 AM.

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#28 Jack_Golfer

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 09:48 PM

Have played a couple of rounds now and starting to sort out some of the technical issues of the RIT.

 

Firstly, the right hand finger grip is essential if the throw is to be on plane.

 

The second thing that I found was that the right forearm can not fan, as in TGM action. The forearm and the elbow must move back and forth as one, if the forearm rotation is to be prevented.

 

During the last two rounds, I have been experimenting with the RIT, hitting some good shots and many not so good. However by the eighteenth today, I had 60 metre shot to the flag, up hill, into the wind. I used the RIT to hit it within half a metre of the flag. I think I might be getting the hang of it:-)


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#29 BROWNMAN

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:57 PM

almost a hitters action.....piston pumping mama


I am NOT a teacher, coach.
Iam a LEARNER
What I post here is either from the book,OR what I have learnt from it.
You dont like it..fine....dont read it ....SIMPLE

#30 Weetbix

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 09:15 AM

Not fanning makes sense - when your throw you don't fan your forearm open, you move the whole arm back together
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